Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came up in a tourny.


1) How does a mantle of st ophilia on a cannoness interact with implant attack from a tyrant?

2) how do markerlights work in this case: I have 6 marker light hits, I use 3 to remove the cover save of a unit. I then use 2 to increase my BS. The target then goes to ground. Do they get a coversave now? Is it too late to use the last marker light hit?

frgsinwntr wrote:This came up in a tourny.


1) How does a mantle of st ophilia on a cannoness interact with implant attack from a tyrant?

2) how do markerlights work in this case: I have 6 marker light hits, I use 3 to remove the cover save of a unit. I then use 2 to increase my BS. The target then goes to ground. Do they get a coversave now? Is it too late to use the last marker light hit?

1) By my reading of the rules, if the attack by the Tyranid creature would be enough to cause instant death, the WH character would take two wounds (from implant attack), the first would be prevented from causing instant death by the Mantle while the second wound would still cause instant death.


2) Units choose to 'go to ground' after 'to hit' and 'wound' rolls are all completed. At this point it is much too late to nominate any further markerlight hits on the unit. Going to Ground simply adds +1 to the cover save, so yes, if you used 3 markerlights on a unit that was in 4+ cover and it then went 'to ground' it would get a 6+ cover save. However, the Tau player can always burn an extra markerlight hit ahead of time (assuming he has one available) to make the cover save modifier -4 just to make it pointless for the unit to even think about going to ground.

1. Don't know

2. In this case, were there any wounds? Were all the markerlight hits from the same shooting squad (i.e. networked)? And if there were, did you (or whoever) roll to hit and/or wound?

It honestly all depends on the shooting order. As the target can go to ground after the first 3 cover save removals (hypothetically to a cover save of 0), and then decide to go to ground after wound rolls are made, so they would then have a 6+. But if you then applied more markerlight hits on the same squad after they went to ground (assuming this came from a different squad because the last squad shooting is done), you could then remove his go to ground effect with a single markerlight hit. I hope I am making sense as there are a lot of different scenarios that this could or could not apply.

Yak, doesn't the mantle say they "only take one wound"?

frgsinwntr wrote:Yak, doesn't the mantle say they "only take one wound"?

Yes, instead of suffering instant death.

With implant attack an unsaved wound on a multi-wound model equals two wounds, each of which would presumably cause instant death in this scenario. The first one is reduced to a single wound by the mantle the other one inflicts instant death.

implant: a model that does not pass its saving throw when wounded by a creature with implant attack suffers two wounds instead of one

Mantle: The first time the model wound take a wound that cause an instant death effect, only one wound is actually taken.

Umm I read it a little differently in this case... this is an instant death hit that would cause 2 wounds. Yes it also causes instant death but since I can only take one wound instead I read it as the cannoness would only take 1.

How does anyone else read this?

I am with yak.

G

frgsinwntr wrote:implant: a model that does not pass its saving throw when wounded by a creature with implant attack suffers two wounds instead of one

Mantle: The first time the model wound take a wound that cause an instant death effect, only one wound is actually taken.

Umm I read it a little differently in this case... this is an instant death hit that would cause 2 wounds. Yes it also causes instant death but since I can only take one wound instead I read it as the cannoness would only take 1.

How does anyone else read this?

Look at how Implant attack is worded. For each wound caused by the creature with implant attack, if the target model does not pass its saving throw, it then takes two wounds instead of one. If the creature's attacks qualify to cause instant death then technically it will be causing two wounds on the target both of which cause instant death.

yes... but it doesn't actuallly cause wounds as normal. Before the wounds would be applied the mantle would kick in. Right? It says the first time a model "would take a wound"

I dunno... give me some time to reread

frgsinwntr wrote:yes... but it doesn't actuallly cause wounds as normal. Before the wounds would be applied the mantle would kick in. Right? It says the first time a model "would take a wound"

I dunno... give me some time to reread

In this case it's either 2 normal wounds or instant death, definitely not a single normal wound, these two don't cancel eachother out so it simply comes down to order, either the mantle operates first, reducing the instant death wound to a single normal wound, which is then doubled by implant attack or implant attack takes priority, doubling the number of instant death wounds and causing the mantle to be unable to counteract both.

hmm so 2 wounds that don't cause instant death is also a possible outcome?

man this is a strange interaction

Edit double... damned computer

Edit double post

Hmmm.... Yak,

Does the second wound have the attributes of the first wound? Or is it just a generic 'wound'.

Wounds from No Retreat, or Gets Hot, etc are just generic wounds. I don't feel sure that this extra wound is the same as the one that causes it.

wow... that is a totally different way of thinking about it I never thought about coredump...

hrm...

yakface wrote:
2) Units choose to 'go to ground' after 'to hit' and 'wound' rolls are all completed. At this point it is much too late to nominate any further markerlight hits on the unit. Going to Ground simply adds +1 to the cover save, so yes, if you used 3 markerlights on a unit that was in 4+ cover and it then went 'to ground' it would get a 6+ cover save. However, the Tau player can always burn an extra markerlight hit ahead of time (assuming he has one available) to make the cover save modifier -4 just to make it pointless for the unit to even think about going to ground.

I usually agree with you Yak, but with all due respect, that ruling is ridiculous.
It's nowhere within the boundaries of the rule set.

First, you hit the unit with markerlights.
Then, you use them to turn a 4+ cover into NO cover. You can't have WORSE than NO COVER SAVE.
Even if you do, for some reason, "burn" another markerlight to make the save worse by one... It goes from "no cover save" to "No cover save, -1).
Now, he adjusts his BS, then shoots, hits, wounds.
Once that is done, his opponent decides to "Go to ground"
His earlier 4+ is negated, due to markerlights. Clearly (to me), this NEW 6+ save happens after the sequesce earlier and is, therefore, not affected by previous markerlights.
Therefore, he should get the 6+ save.



I'm standing in woods, behind a ruined wall.
Fishface points his LED Laser at me, so the Firewarriors next to him can see me.
They shoot and I hit the deck.
Suddenly, Ol' Fishface's LED is pointed at the area where I WAS standing and NOT where I currently am; lying in a fetal position under a bush.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

I usually agree with you Yak, but with all due respect, that ruling is ridiculous.
It's nowhere within the boundaries of the rule set.

First, you hit the unit with markerlights.
Then, you use them to turn a 4+ cover into NO cover. You can't have WORSE than NO COVER SAVE.
Even if you do, for some reason, "burn" another markerlight to make the save worse by one... It goes from "no cover save" to "No cover save, -1).
Now, he adjusts his BS, then shoots, hits, wounds.
Once that is done, his opponent decides to "Go to ground"
His earlier 4+ is negated, due to markerlights. Clearly (to me), this NEW 6+ save happens after the sequesce earlier and is, therefore, not affected by previous markerlights.
Therefore, he should get the 6+ save.



I'm standing in woods, behind a ruined wall.
Fishface points his LED Laser at me, so the Firewarriors next to him can see me.
They shoot and I hit the deck.
Suddenly, Ol' Fishface's LED is pointed at the area where I WAS standing and NOT where I currently am; lying in a fetal position under a bush.

Eric

The markerlight rule simply says:

"To impose a -1 penalty on any Cover Saves the marked unit may have from the effects of the unit's shooting. Multiple counters may be expended to impose a cumulative modifier."

You choose to use markerlights before rolling 'to hit'. So If I want to make a unit's cover save -4 and I have at least four markerlights to do so I can. 'Going to Ground' just adds +1 to their cover save. So if the normal cover save is 4+ the unit would get +1 for going to ground (3+) and -4 markerlight adjustments meaning no save possible.

This isn't anything wacky or crazy, just basic rules as far as I can tell.

coredump wrote:Hmmm.... Yak,

Does the second wound have the attributes of the first wound? Or is it just a generic 'wound'.

Wounds from No Retreat, or Gets Hot, etc are just generic wounds. I don't feel sure that this extra wound is the same as the one that causes it.

Why not, it is a wound caused by a model in CC. There are similar other effects in the game (mainly in Apocalypse vs. Gargantuan creatures) where an unsaved wound from certain weapons causes D3 or D6 wounds instead of 1. These are still most certainly wounds caused by the model and I don't see any basis to play them any other way.

yakface wrote:

coredump wrote:Hmmm.... Yak,

Does the second wound have the attributes of the first wound? Or is it just a generic 'wound'.

Wounds from No Retreat, or Gets Hot, etc are just generic wounds. I don't feel sure that this extra wound is the same as the one that causes it.

Why not, it is a wound caused by a model in CC. There are similar other effects in the game (mainly in Apocalypse vs. Gargantuan creatures) where an unsaved wound from certain weapons causes D3 or D6 wounds instead of 1. These are still most certainly wounds caused by the model and I don't see any basis to play them any other way.

Would have to agree. Nothing to indicate that the 2nd wound of an implant attack is of less quality than the 1st one.