Switch Theme:

The Ork Kustom Force Field and Obscured. What is the save?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dundee, Scotland/Dharahn, Saudi Arabia

The Ork Kustom Force Field.
The rules in the codex say that it confers a 5+ cover save to every unit with a model within 6", and that it makes vehicles obscured.

Now people have been taking this as a 4+ save on the vehicles (which is the usual save for an obscured vehicle)

All well and good, but the rule book also says in the obscured rules on p62

If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex

(emphasis mine)

The codex specifies a 5+ save from the KFF.
Which takes precedence?


If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it.
item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++ 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

By golly I think you're right.

But I think many people will resist this interpretation because of the way that the KFF rules have a sentence break between how it affects "units" and then how it affects "vehicles" (even though vehicles are units).

This is because back in 3rd edition the rules often referred to infantry as "units" and vehicles as "vehicles" and many people still haven't gotten out of that mindset.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 14:15:08


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dundee, Scotland/Dharahn, Saudi Arabia

that's the thing, This little gem was pointed out to me a week or so ago.
With the rise of the Orks as a tourney force I thought it was worth further consideration.

If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it.
item 87, skippys list
DC:70S+++G+++M+++B+++I++Pw40k86/f#-D+++++A++++/cWD86R+++++T(D)DM++ 
   
Made in us
Major






far away from Battle Creek, Michigan

Rather than argue which interpretation is accurate why not acknowledge at the outset an outright contradiction? That vast majority of posts in YMDC start from a faulty premise: to wit, that the rules are clearly written and someone has the correct understanding and others a faulty understanding. The example cited here is a great example slip-shod rules writing. The first sentence says "all units"; the second sentence directs players to used the BRB 'obscured' rules for vehicles. CLEARLY, RAI is 4+ cover save for vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 14:32:53


PROSECUTOR: By now, there have been 34 casualties.

Elena Ceausescu says: Look, and that they are calling genocide.

 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





I think one of the problems concerning this issue, is the inability/reluctance to accept the posibility of a given unit to have several coversaves.

A KFF does indeed provide a vehicle with a 5+ coversave, as a vehicle is a unit.
It also makes a vehicle obscured, giving it a 4+ coversave.
A given vehicle has both to choose from.

This situation is not a new one.
Ork Bikers in area terrain and Eldar Guardians (with a Conceal Warlock) behind a wall of sandbags have the same thing.


-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






The vehicle gets a 5+ cover save for being a unit.

The vehicle also gets a 4+ cover save for being obscured.

As a player, you pick which save applies and declare before you roll.

It's very cut and dry.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Did no one read what he posted.


The vehicle also gets a 4+ cover save for being obscured.
This is *not* what the BRB states.

If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex


No one has a problem with multiple saves, or any of the other issues brought up here.

Obscured is 4+ *unless* the codex says otherwise. The question is: Does the KFF rules indicate a 5+ save instead of the default?
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





IMO no

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Please show me where the BRB states that the Kustom Force Field downgrades Obscured from a 4+ to a 5+.

Likewise, please show me where in the Ork Codex "Obscured" as granted by a Kustom Force Field becomes a 5+ save.
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






West Bend WI.

White dwarf U.S. # 344. On page 65 Phil Kelly (who wrote the Ork Codex) discribing his army selection.
(Quote) A big mek with a custom force field generator should help my scary-lookin' first wave, effectively giving the trukks a 4+ save from Matt's gun line.
I would think Phil knows how thw rule works.

8000pts.
7000pts.
5000pts.
on the way. 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




The obscured rules tell us they grant a vehicle a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex!

The entry for KFF tells us that all units within 6" are granted a 5+ cover save.

If this ain't specifically stating otherwise to you, than what is? I think the OP is correct and that Ork vehicles within 6" of a KFF should get a 5+ cover save.
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





They do, Airmaniac. They just also get to be Obscured. What are the rules for Obscured?

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

I'd say this is another artifact of the Ork Codex's unique position as a 4.5 codex. In 4th, Obscured worked very differently than it does today. Furthermore a vehicle could not benefit from a cover save. In order for the rules to work until the new edition came out, the effects were broken up. As others have pointed out, it now provides a vehicle the Obscured status, as well as the 5+ cover save.

It does not define what the obscured save will be. To some players, this will seem insufficiently precise to downgrade the normal 4+ cover save of obscured. To others, it will not. It is clear that the vehicle is intended to have a 5+ cover save, and to be obscured.

The natural counterargument to the idea that the 5+ cover for all units limit the obscured save is the application of that same precision to the types of units affected. 5+ cover applies to all units. This is quite sufficient to protect a vehicle with a 5+ cover save if that is what the designers intended, or wrote. Instead, they made a further distinction between what effect the KFF had on units. This distinction strongly implies a different save. Otherwise it is needlessly redundant.

This is by no means definitive, but I can't see why they'd bother saying something was benefiting from the same effect twice.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: