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Witchhunters for instance, does the cannonness if she buys a celestian squad as a personal retinue, does she ever become untargetable in combat (such as she counts basically as a vet sergent instead of a independant character) ?

Absolutly correct. On top of this, if you take her as a casualty before the squad is wiped out, you rob your opponent of a possible kill point.

Deadshane1 wrote:Absolutly correct. On top of this, if you take her as a casualty before the squad is wiped out, you rob your opponent of a possible kill point.

I don't think so, if you opt to have the retinue you have taken a retinue regardless of IC status or not (Upgrade Characters could legally take retinues anyway because the core rules simply indicate characters, and not the more specific Independant Characters, as being able to take a retinue.) As such you would follow the rules for retinues and kill points which indicate "If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

I dunno where the RULEBOOK or official FAQ's specifically back you up, but its probably definatly argueable.

The rulebook specifically states that when accompanied by a retinue, an IC is an upgrade character...no longer an IC. Obviously the IC and retinue are bought as a single unit. If you lose the IC before the retinue is gone he never re-obtaines his IC status and therefore never actually becomes a seperate unit in the game.

Whatever though, its an argueable point...until something FAQ's it one way or the other.

P91 Of the BGB.

It doesnt need to be FAQ'ed, its already there & quite clear on the matter.

What does it say on page 91? I dont have my rules w/ me right now.

The same thing that I said before so I doubt it will convince you.

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

I personally feel this is sufficient, but obviously it might not be if it's unclear enough that atleast 1 person and potentially many more see it an entirely different way to me.

Page 91 is the 'Seize Ground' and 'Capture and Control' missions.

Drunkspleen wrote:The same thing that I said before so I doubt it will convince you.

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

I personally feel this is sufficient, but obviously it might not be if it's unclear enough that atleast 1 person and potentially many more see it an entirely different way to me.

No need to get so uppity, I wasnt aware of the rulebook specifically spelling this point out. If this is the complete rule and its specifically addressing retinues in the kill point missions, then you would indeed be correct. Which I'm glad I know about now.

I appreciate it, I'll check out the specific rule myself when I get home.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:The same thing that I said before so I doubt it will convince you.

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

I personally feel this is sufficient, but obviously it might not be if it's unclear enough that atleast 1 person and potentially many more see it an entirely different way to me.

No need to get so uppity, I wasnt aware of the rulebook specifically spelling this point out. If this is the complete rule and its specifically addressing retinues in the kill point missions, then you would indeed be correct. Which I'm glad I know about now.

I appreciate it, I'll check out the specific rule myself when I get home.

I apologise for coming off rude, I didn't intend to at all, I just assumed you had already seen it in my earlier post and for whatever reason felt it still didn't satisfy your arguments for why the character would not be worth an extra kill point.

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

Webbe wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard.

That is the main reason why I take a retinue with my Grey Knight Grand Master. He protected by the retinue and can't be singled out in hth. Lovely against Greater deamons.

The rule for retinue is within the Box dealing with ICs and joining units. The box follows after the heading for ICs.

Within that box, they often refer to ICs as simply 'characters'.

The retinue rules clearly state that after losing a retinue, the character reverts *back* to being an IC.

By the rules, the retinue situation only applies to ICs with retinues.

This may be a bit off topic, but one thing I have been unsure of is if a squad of warlocks taken with an eldar farseer counted as a retinue/bodyguard. You may only take a squad of locks if you take the farseer, but they are not specifically stated to be a retinue. Nor does it even say that you must deploy the farseer with the warlock squad. Skimmed through the FAQ's and rulebook and couldn't find anything.

Axyl wrote:This may be a bit off topic, but one thing I have been unsure of is if a squad of warlocks taken with an eldar farseer counted as a retinue/bodyguard. You may only take a squad of locks if you take the farseer, but they are not specifically stated to be a retinue. Nor does it even say that you must deploy the farseer with the warlock squad. Skimmed through the FAQ's and rulebook and couldn't find anything.

The warlocks are not a retinue. They are a separate unit, and the Farseer does not have to stay with them.

A DE Archon/Drachon can take a retinue of Warriors or Incubi or a combination of both.

Another example of retinues, farsight & his 6man crisis suit team. Wussy.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:The same thing that I said before so I doubt it will convince you.

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

I personally feel this is sufficient, but obviously it might not be if it's unclear enough that atleast 1 person and potentially many more see it an entirely different way to me.

No need to get so uppity, I wasnt aware of the rulebook specifically spelling this point out. If this is the complete rule and its specifically addressing retinues in the kill point missions, then you would indeed be correct. Which I'm glad I know about now.

I appreciate it, I'll check out the specific rule myself when I get home.

I apologise for coming off rude, I didn't intend to at all, I just assumed you had already seen it in my earlier post and for whatever reason felt it still didn't satisfy your arguments for why the character would not be worth an extra kill point.

You didn't come off as being rude to me... and I've got a far lower tolerance for most when it comes to what seems rude.
Plus, you'd also clearly quoted the rule once before. So, if you WERE a little annoyed, it was understandable.

Definitely not uppity.

Eric

coredump wrote:The rule for retinue is within the Box dealing with ICs and joining units. The box follows after the heading for ICs.

Within that box, they often refer to ICs as simply 'characters'.

The retinue rules clearly state that after losing a retinue, the character reverts *back* to being an IC.

By the rules, the retinue situation only applies to ICs with retinues.

This is true, but only the rules for counting as an upgrade character while with a squad and reverting to IC status are within this section, but the rules regarding characters and retinues and how many kill points they are worth is later on in the mission type rules, and still uses the more broad character only, meaning if a codex puts a character in a retinue that unit is worth 2 kill points.

Webbe wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

DA techmarine and his servitors are a retinue. The techmarine is a elite that doesn't take a FOC slot.

The best part of retinues is that you can have hidden IC weapons.

Grey Knight grand master can use hidden force weapon for instance.

yakface wrote:

Webbe wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard.

I thought a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard was only 1 KP since the Tyrant is not an IC and a tyrant with guard is just 1 unit.

SeattleDV8 wrote:

Webbe wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

DA techmarine and his servitors are a retinue. The techmarine is a elite that doesn't take a FOC slot.

Where does it say retinue?
As far as I can see they are just a unit with a techmarine and 0-4 servitors.

Red_Lives wrote:

yakface wrote:

Webbe wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each".

You needn't be an Independant Character to forfeit 2 kill points when accompanied by a retinue.

While this is technically true, are there any examples in any of the codices where an upgrade character can have a retinue? It seems a bit odd.

Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard.

I thought a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard was only 1 KP since the Tyrant is not an IC and a tyrant with guard is just 1 unit.

The Tyranid FAQ explains that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character while with his retinue. This means they are worth a KP each according to page 91. Good example BTW Yak.

According to the rules for retinues in the BRB, you need to be an IC to have a retinue as defined in the BRB.

A Hive tyrant is not an IC, it will not 'revert back' to one. it does not count as a separate KP.

coredump wrote:According to the rules for retinues in the BRB, you need to be an IC to have a retinue as defined in the BRB.

A Hive tyrant is not an IC, it will not 'revert back' to one. it does not count as a separate KP.

So then as it's not an IC it can't have a retinue, because according to the BRB you need to be an IC to have a retinue... It clearly has a retinue and is described in a FAQ as operating as an upgrade character, meaning it follows the rules for retinues and kill points which state that a "character" note that it's not an IC, "and his retinue" are worth 1 kill point each, for a total of two.

The fact that codex tyranids decided to give a retinue to a non IC is neither here nor there, as the rules clearly state any character and not just ICs will be worth a point as well as their retinue when being accompanied.

So.....


1. a Cannoness who takes a retinue of celestians is worth 2kp if you kill the retinue first, and only 1 kp if the Cannoness dies first?

2. Does it matter if its the same round of combat that both selections die?

3. the powerfist doesn't get to pick her out until the retinue is dead

Sazzlefrats wrote:So.....


1. a Cannoness who takes a retinue of celestians is worth 2kp if you kill the retinue first, and only 1 kp if the Cannoness dies first?

2. Does it matter if its the same round of combat that both selections die?

3. the powerfist doesn't get to pick her out until the retinue is dead

1. No, regardless of order the cannoness is always worth a single Kill Point and her retinue is always worth a seperate single kill point.

2. N/A per answer to 1

3. Correct, no attacks can be targetted directly at the Cannoness but only at her entire collective unit in close combat.