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For those not aware, the Adepticon Gladiator allows Flyers & superheavies, per some restrictions. But these are 40k games, not Apocalypse games, so no strategic formations or strategems to worry about, and no Vortex grenades to make the life of a superheavy more interesting. 2250 pts

This is NOT my list. It came to me as a natural extension of current tourney trends, coupled with the release date of the Stompa.

Warboss on bike w/Biker Nob friends

Warboss on bike w/Biker Nob friends

20 slugga boyz w/Nob

Stompa (for flavor, you could substitute the Mek's Stompa, which might be a boost vs. skimmer-spam)

KP-wise, it retains the advatages of the Biker Nobs (only 6 KPs at 2250). And where that list usually starts to break down at higher point levels, this version brings a Stompa along, to suck up a bunch of those things which would usually be used against Biker Nobs to great effect. As a bonus, the Stompa is a Transport, and can hold a boyz squad out of harmz way, with a somewhat giant "scoring unit" footprint. Now, the bikers can't be as nasty as you might wish, given the cost of the Stompa, but they can still pack a few PKs into the list; there's about 750 pts/unit (incl. Warboss) to work with.

No army with a superheavy has ever won the Gladiator. Part of that has been in mission design - there's generally been at least one "screw the superexpensive unit" mission in the mix. Also, part of that was Forgeworld's subpar rules; this has been rather obviated, courtesy of Apocalypse. But part of that is self-fulfilling prophecy, I think - people know superheavies can't win, so the super-competitive players don't bring superheavies.

Thoughts? How do you counter something like this, while still building the nastiest "take all comers" list you can?

I don't think anyone will be able to beat this list. I wouldn't be surprised to see more than one of these armies on Friday.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think anyone will be able to beat this list. I wouldn't be surprised to see more than one of these armies on Friday.

G

I don't think it's unbeatable. Start with a Hierophant, for example, and add on a few CC carnies, a dakka tyrant or two, plus a bunch of without-number gaunts for scoring. 16 S10 48" shots will munch a stompa right quick, and you can't tie it up in HtH with the Nobs, as it is gargantuan. (And I've faced a Hierophant at Adepticon before; the models are already in the metagame.)

What I'm curious about, is whether a "balanced" list can be constructed to face things like this, or if the Gladiator is going to come down to either rock-paper-scissors, or relying on the missions to prevent certain types of armies from having a shot at the brass ring.

I thought Bill Kim won the gladiator last year with a Tyranid monstrosity in his list... I could be wrong though.

What are the stats on the Stompa? How many structure points, how many void shields and what kind of dakka does it bring to the table?

The biggest problem I see with nob bikers is if someone whacks them with D class ordnance weapon.

G

uh... yea I sent a list to Moz earlier that would rock this... and the Nid monstrosity

Of course the secret ingredient is secret :p

I just whipped this up as a balanced Marine list I think would give your list a hard time and still do well against the field.

HQ - Pedro
HQ - Librarian with terminator armor

EL - 6 Assault terminators in LR Crusader w/ armor and MM
EL - 6 Assault terminators

TR - 10 marines, lascannon, meltagun
TR - 10 marines, lascannon, meltagun
TR - 10 marines, lascannon, meltagun

FA - 3 attack bikes
FA - 3 attack bikes w/ mm

HV - LR Redeemer, extra armor, mm
HV - Thunderfire cannon

Demons should be interesting this go around. The special deployment for the army list usually gets around any type of monkey wrench that gets thrown in the mix.

Then again demon deployment can mess itself up. I plan on bringing Big Papa Nurgle.

Damn I wish I had the money to go to adepticon AND Hawaii that week :p

Unfortunately I can't swing it!

I would just go to adepticon then.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I thought Bill Kim won the gladiator last year with a Tyranid monstrosity in his list... I could be wrong though.

What are the stats on the Stompa? How many structure points, how many void shields and what kind of dakka does it bring to the table?

The biggest problem I see with nob bikers is if someone whacks them with D class ordnance weapon.

G

Bill had the Trygon, who isn't Gargantuan, merely Monstrous.

The Stompa, in full, is in the base Apocalypse rulebook. If you're playing in the Gladiator this year, better pick one up.

Without going into too much detail.... Of most concern for "conventional" lists is the primary weapon, a S10 AP1 7" blast ordnance weapon. That'll cause even Land Raiders problems from turn 1 onwards. Both versions mount the big cannon (as a primary weapon). The Big Mek's Stompa is armed very differently otherwise, adds two Power Fields to the 4 structure points, and does nasty things to vehicles that come within 48" with it's Lifta-droppa.

The Trygon is a gargantuan creature, but just barely. 300 points.

Hank also won the Gladiator with Angrath, but that was pre-apocalypse and with some funky rules for the Gladiator that year.

The problem with super-heavies and gargantuans in previous Gladiators has been twofold. One, they take up a huge number of points, which means that you have proportionally less units in your army, which means you have a tougher time achieving objectives, especially with the way the Gladiator missions have been structured in the last few years.

The second problem with super-heavies is that they have this awkward tendency to become point-failure sources in an army. Since you're putting all those points into the unit, it becomes a lynchpin for your army's success. Good players recognize that, and work like the dickens to take them out.

The Trygon got around a lot of those issues. First, it's only 300 points...or the price of two carnifexes. Second, the way I structured my army, I really could have cared less if the Trygon lived or died, or even if it accomplished anything more than being a bullet-magnet for a turn, because in some ways its most powerful ability is that it lets a squad of Raveners use its entry point as a board edge, and its all but guaranteed to arrive successfully (as the only thing it doesn't displace are other super-heavies.

Anyways...I'd strongly suspect that this year's Gladiator will continue to have the Primary/Secondary/Tertiary/Bonus structure for its missions (It's almost like I've got inside information or something... ), and that winning the Gladiator is going to require getting near-perfect battle scores (I missed out on one point last year.)

What is the range on the Stompa ordance weapon? If I were going to field one I would most definitely take the Big Mekk version as the void shields are well worth the extra points alone.

One of the potential strengths of running nob bikers is that count as scoring units. If you can keep them alive by the end of the game that alone could mean the difference between a victory and a loss. The main problem I see with them is that even with the Stompa at this point level there are a lot of guns available for the gladiator that can seriously strafe them.

G

BTW I do own a copy of the Forgeworld rulebook and will be studying it very very intently.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:What is the range on the Stompa ordance weapon? If I were going to field one I would most definitely take the Big Mekk version as the void shields are well worth the extra points alone.

Think "Battlecannon."

One of the potential strengths of running nob bikers is that count as scoring units. If you can keep them alive by the end of the game that alone could mean the difference between a victory and a loss. The main problem I see with them is that even with the Stompa at this point level there are a lot of guns available for the gladiator that can seriously strafe them.

The good(?) news is that most of the Nob-gibbing guns are also Stompa-shooting guns, and it's less likely that most armies will have THAT many of them (or else they're likely weak against hordes); they're probably going to have to choose. Plus the Stompa makes for some good LoS blocking for a turn or two, if needed.

The Hierophant Biotitan can come close to killing this list by itself. 16 str 10 shots from the two bio cannons should really put some hurt on the Stompa. 8 hits at Strength 10. 4 Penetrate and 1 Glance so it will probably have a weapon stunned and maybe another destroyed and maybe take a structure damage or two. Depending on who got first turn it might do almost no damage to the Hierophant bio titan since you might have lost a weapon and another might have gotten stunned.

The Hierophant biotitan is no slouch in assault. A stomp attack at Initiative 3 and Strength 10 will kill half of your nob bikers on average and possibly the warboss. What ever power klaws you have left will then get to swing on init 1 and then you take the Miasma wounds as well. You lose an attack to the Lash Whip so you lost your extra charge attacks. You have like maybe 2-4 Powerklaws left depending on how many you took and 1 of your warbosses. The regular klaws wound on a 5 and you need to hit first. Maybe you put 5 wounds on the titan. You probably are losing combat and are running and maybe below half because a barb strangler shot you on the way in or you lost your warboss to the stomp.

FrgsinWntr's list is really nasty that probably would smoke this list too.

Avariel wrote:The Hierophant Biotitan can come close to killing this list by itself. 16 str 10 shots from the two bio cannons should really put some hurt on the Stompa. 8 hits at Strength 10. 4 Penetrate and 1 Glance so it will probably have a weapon stunned and maybe another destroyed and maybe take a structure damage or two. Depending on who got first turn it might do almost no damage to the Hierophant bio titan since you might have lost a weapon and another might have gotten stunned.

I know. The Reaver titan does it even better, as it has D weapons to work with.

But the Hierophant list has problems of it's own (starting with over half of it's points tied up in a single, non-scoring model, and continuing with a tournament tradition of including at least one "it's hard to be large" mission objective). And lists which can handle the Hierophant have weaknesses of their own, etc....

The question isn't "What can beat the Nob/Stompa list?" It's "what tournament-balanced force can deal with the Nob/Stompa list?" Or, more generally, how do you build a tournament-balanced list that can cope with both 240+ ork hordes AND Forgeworld superheavies/gargantuan creatures?

One more option there ...

The luck of the draw. What opponent you get can really matter.

Clay Williams wrote:One more option there ...

The luck of the draw. What opponent you get can really matter.

Yeah, I think that's going to be more important than usual. Each of the superheavy lists has potential counters, but those counters have weaknesses of their own. Rock-paper-scissors might be the order of the day.

I feel people are underrating an IG list with a hellhammer for back up...

Looks pretty good...

However, We need to see the official volcano cannon rules first.

IA:Apocalypse shadowswords are laughably bad. But, the volcano cannon listed in the official apoc rulebook is 10" pie, Str D.

If the shadowswords in march are 500 points with strength D 10" pie. I think that seriously hurts nob bikers.

That is a big 'if'.

Would an army with a shadowsword need to be IG? If so, then its REALLY too early.

Eldar Cobras would also be suitably scary to face off against. And we already know they are 10" D.

Other than 10" Strength D... thats a pretty nice list. i would think that the mek stompa would help control the heavy vehicle lists, just like you said. it also clumps vehicles together nicely for dual charges from the nobs.

Are Strength "D" weapons going to be allowed in the Tourney?

MAN!

Quixote wrote:Are Strength "D" weapons going to be allowed in the Tourney?

Yup. The Gladiator allows most every superheavy, as well as fliers and other interesting FW stuff.

Shep wrote:However, We need to see the official volcano cannon rules first.

IA:Apocalypse shadowswords are laughably bad. But, the volcano cannon listed in the official apoc rulebook is 10" pie, Str D.

According to the AdeptiCon 2009 Imperial Armor & Apocalypse Units rules, the Shadowsword must use the IA: Apoc rules. (Most recent official rules.)