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Hey, I assume this has been asked before, but I'm trying to learn the new rules, and am getting confused by the interactions of old codicies and new rules.

Rulebook, page 91 wrote:If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth one kill point each.

On the face, this rule implies that both classes of 40k characters ("independent" and "upgrade" characters, as defined on page 47) can potentially surrender an "extra" kill point. But the "Retinue" rule, found on page 48, is found under the heading "Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units," and therefore seems to be only applicable to ICs. Additionally, the "Retinues" rule states that all characters with retinues become Independent when their retinue is destroyed.

Can non-independent characters ever give up a kill point? If so, how would that work?

non-independent characters can be worth a kill point only when accompanied by a retinue, the prime example of this is the Tyranid Hive Tyrant who is not granted IC status but is still able to take a retinue. In this case the retinue of guard and the Tyrant are each worth a single kill point as per your quoted rule.

It is also worth noting that an IC with a retinue isn't actually an IC till it is killed as you stated, so if the rule said "if an Independant Character has a retinue" it would never actually apply in the game.

Also take care in noticing the difference between a retinue and, for example, a Command Squad bought under the new SM codex.

No, they do not.

The rules dealing with a retinue in the BRB are clearly and obviously in the IC section. The box deals with ICs, the box comes after the IC heading in the text. And the rule states you revert *back* to an IC if the retinue dies.

Additionally, several times within that box, they use the shorter term 'character' when clearly refering to only ICs.

To look at a single sentence, while pointedly ignoring the context surrounding the sentence, is not playing by the rules.

coredump wrote:No, they do not.

The rules dealing with a retinue in the BRB are clearly and obviously in the IC section. The box deals with ICs, the box comes after the IC heading in the text. And the rule states you revert *back* to an IC if the retinue dies.

Additionally, several times within that box, they use the shorter term 'character' when clearly refering to only ICs.

To look at a single sentence, while pointedly ignoring the context surrounding the sentence, is not playing by the rules.

You're looking at the wrong sentence, the one that governs how many kill points a character and accompanying retinue is worth is not in the character rule but in the section about the different mission rules.

These rules clearly aren't in the IC section and as such apply to anything participating in a Kill Point engagement, and they continue to use the broader "character" rather than specifically refer to ICs. While by the core rules it may be that only ICs are entitled to retinues, if a codex chooses to override this and give a retinue to an upgrade character then there is no reason for that character and retinue to be worth any less than two kill points.

In order for an upgrade character to give up an extra kill point according to page 91, that upgrade character would have to have a retinue associated with it instead of its regular unit. That covers precisely nothing in the current game, as far as I can tell.

If the CSM armory came back and aspiring champions were allowed to buy chaos hounds again and those hounds were declared to be retinues, then this would suddenly be relevent. Until something similar happens ...

solkan wrote:In order for an upgrade character to give up an extra kill point according to page 91, that upgrade character would have to have a retinue associated with it instead of its regular unit. That covers precisely nothing in the current game, as far as I can tell.

If the CSM armory came back and aspiring champions were allowed to buy chaos hounds again and those hounds were declared to be retinues, then this would suddenly be relevent. Until something similar happens ...

Except that the Tyranid Hive Tyrant is considered an upgrade character per the FAQ and can take a retinue of Tyrant Guard. Also, it means the older characters who have rules saying they cease being an IC when with a retinue are still worth a point while with said retinue as they are an upgrade character, which is not a view which I have seen universally accepted despite rules which to me seem quite clear.

Drunken, I can see your point now. While I don't agree, it has some merit. When I get more time, will start a thread on this.