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At str 4 , 3 attacks their base stat is not much better then a saurus warrior other then
been able to carry great weapons , are there any reasons at all to use them?

wouldn't stegadons / coldone / temple guard be a better choice?

are they worth taking just to form a regiment with skinks? though at T2 im not sure
if its wise to stick them in combat isntead of fleeing from enemy charges.

what do you guys think?

In the last 10 years I have never seen anyone ask this question.

Why would you NOT use the great weapon? That is all they are armed with....

In the current book (that expires in a few days) they were st7 with GW and absolute gold when compared to every other mosterous unit compareable (treekin, ogre ironguts, minotaurs etc)

HOWEVER. Now at St 6 they have become THE SUK compared to the bonuses the rest of the special units got.....

The only place I'll be using them in the forseeable future is in skink cohorts.

The idea behing the cohorts is now you have (you will be taking 2 kroxigor won't you?) 6 St6 attacks and full combat res vs the usual 9 st6 attacks and no combat res for the unit of 3 kroxigor.... The skinks are ablative wounds vs shooting.

Sure the skinks will die in droves, but they are there to deliver the kroxigor and give combat res.

Not sure what i will do ( never played Lizardmen )

So im planning ahead atm trying to get a feel of the army by sorting through the army book via math hammering.

So far im invisioning the only skinks in my army to be either priest / stegadon crew / hunting pack crew etc etc.

I don't have the new army book but it doesn't look like Lizardmen armies will change much.

Without knowing any definitive points values, the tournament lists will probably look something like this:

Slann
Skink Priest
Scar-Veteran or a 2nd Skink Priest or simply play with the Slann and one Skink Priest

Skink skirmishers
Skink skirmishers
Skink skirmishers

Stegadon
Stegadon
Stegadon
Terradons

Ancient Stegadon
Ancient Stegadon

Basically, Kroxigors and Saurus Cav (since they lost the huanchi banner) are just replaced with Stegadons, and Salamanders are replaced with even more Stegadons. It still works the exact same way as before. Lots and lots of small arms ranged fire from the howdahs and skirmishers, solid offensive magic and magic defence and quite brutal in combat. The Stegadons should make one 'formation' of two and one of three, in order to absolutely roll through any threats.

So... No, there are no reasons to ever use Kroxigors, Chameleon Skinks or Oldbloods in this new edition of the army book, and very few reasons to use Saurus cavalry, Saurus infantry, Salamanders or Razordons. Basically, I'd stay clear of anything not mentioned in my rough guestimation list above.

@Therion

well i hope GW introduce some sort of mega stegadon box deal then >< ( 3 stegadon per box please! )

whats so bad about saurus though? 2 attacks / spear / str 4 /12pts / 4+ armor save
20 attacks per regiment block.

Huanchi banner? hmm i still see ( Huanchi's Blessed Totem 25pts )

I don't agree, Therion. The stegos can't take a charge, and can't outrange potential chargers. I don't see the stego herd (particularly w/out character support) as the likely final shape of the Lizardmen tourney list.

Stegadon dont have to charge to be effective though, its ranged attacks are strong enough to make enemies to want to charge it.

4 str 5 attacks, 5 str 3 attacks

all enemy units in 2d6" range gets hit with d6 str4
no armor saves allowed , all undead ,daemon ,spirit gets hit with str 5

Mathematically it seems to be able to hold its on ( not to mention other stegadons near by )

LunaHound

You;'ve missed something - the Engine of the Gods is only a mount for the Priests, so you have to havea priest on top. It's also an Ancient Steg so its 3 S6 attacks. I also think it's 2D6 attacks with no armour saves....prob wishful thinking however

If you have them exactly abreast then one unit should have a good chance of contacting both Stegs, however stubborn Ld6 is only...ok.

remember that Saurus Cav now hav 2+ save, and STILL have the totem - it just doesnt g'tee flank charges as it adds to the charge distance and not a seperate move. However T4 2+ cavalry are great - especially with sun standard they shrug off shooting.

Don't underestimate the Horn - Slaan BSB / Old blood on carnosaur with the horn make all Cav units stubborn. Put 2xscar vet in units of Spear Saurus with 2 units of saurus cav = lots of stubborn, coldblooded units. move forwards as a block with flankers

LunaHound wrote:Not sure what i will do ( never played Lizardmen )

So im planning ahead atm trying to get a feel of the army by sorting through the army book via math hammering.

So far im invisioning the only skinks in my army to be either priest / stegadon crew / hunting pack crew etc etc.

Poisoned Skink blowpipes with 2 shots each if they don't move? You can gun down even characters if you roll decently. Even high Toughness creatures have to worry about it. I saw a Giant get gunned down by them due to a good number of poisoned wounds. If you want math, think of that. Sure, the target might have a 3+ save, but when you can get so many wounds through regardless of Toughness, you have a nice advantage.

I don't believe in math hammer. It is based on probability and and does not take into account the tactics of the players.

Skink Skirmishers will still be a core - 7pts but Ld6 is a good tradeoff, units of 10 x 3 can create serious hurt for relatively small outlay. I've killed lone characters with no risk to myself, even got the fabled DE Lord of doom (0+, Pendant, Regen) after I shot the dragon out from under him.

My current list is prob:
Old blood - cold one, mirror shield, poss magic weapon
2xlvl2, poss 1 on 1 engine, bound uranons (turn 3 once scrolls are out i reckon)

unit cav *2
OR unit krox *2

2x spear blocks

then either steg or sallies - depends on what you want.

Not optimal but the resilience of the new blocks is insane, and 25 S4 attacks from a 6 wide unit is nothing to be sniffed at.

(Have also killed a gian t turn one with the old Chameleons. Happy days!)

I don't agree with the Lizardmen Godzilla list becoming standard in tourneys. The stegadons simply do not have enough attacks to deal with something they don't break first round. The engine is also one of the most useless options in the new book. It simply will not make up it's point cost in a game. If the ward save worked in combat, then it would be amazing, but it only works against shooting from greater than 12". Most characters, sans slann and skink priests, are underpowered and over costed. They really didn't give any good magic items to make them viable. Skink skirmishers kinda suck now, considering the relatively high point cost. However, I can still see the possible effectiveness from one ten man unit just to kill light cav or characters. I expect most tournament list to consist of large numbers of Saurus blocks with spears, backed up by terradons, cold one cav, and kroxigors.

I don't agree, Therion. The stegos can't take a charge, and can't outrange potential chargers.

I've stayed undefeated in tournament play with a Lizardman army with no rank bonuses and just Kroxigors and a couple Saurus cav to break enemies with. You don't need M7-M10 to be able to get charges off. With a good eye for charge ranges or a trap the Kroxigors can easily get charges on M7 Knights. Secondly, I can't see why you'd need units that will only be receiving charges. That's playing to your opponent's hands, since he will simply not charge untill he can make such a combined effort that the win is guaranteed. Making unexpected flees and countercharges is much smarter.

I don't agree with the Lizardmen Godzilla list becoming standard in tourneys. The stegadons simply do not have enough attacks to deal with something they don't break first round.

Well spit it out, what kind of units are you talking about? Large blocks of Zombies? Yes, you're right, Stegadons won't go through a block of Zombies unless they go through in one round. Neither will Saurus though despite the 20 odd attacks in the consecutive rounds of combat (I assume Saurus have to charge), and they're pathetically weak in other departments. What I liked to do in the previous army book is use one unit of 6 Saurus Cav with huanchi banner and an ITP Nike Oldblood that joins the unit before they make the banner charge. Those 7 models together would swathe through any number of Zombies, while being immune to psychology and therefore a few bad rolls wouldn't make the unit break. I naturally would have also used mark of the old ones to re-roll the LD test if it ever came down to that, but it never did.

Skink skirmishers kinda suck now

Why on earth do they suck? They gained one stat and gained one point in cost. They're just as good or better than before.

The engine is also one of the most useless options in the new book.

I said nothing about taking the engine. I just said I'd replace Salamanders with Stegadons.

If the new Lizardmen can't beat the new VC it has nothing to do with Stegadons being bad. Stegadons are one of the few things the new Lizardmen have going for them. If it wasn't for the special choice Steggies the army would be tier 3 at best because nearly everything that made Lizardmen powerful (and let's face it they haven't been tier 1 for a while anymore) has been nerfed to the ground. In my opinion five stubborn and coldblooded Stegadons with a Slann BSB nearby are nearly required in today's metagame. Sure, they might still prove to be nothing but Bloodthirster speedbumps, but with enough magic and ranged fire all hope isn't lost. Those MSU Saurus spear armies are doomed to fail. Stop metagaming against Goblins and Empire Spearmen. Assume you're being charged by 6 stubborn Flesh Hounds and a flying chariot, or a Bloodthirster, or a regenerating unit of Plaguebearers with a Herald, or 12 regenerating Black Knights with a Wight King, or 6 Black Knights with hatred banner plus a Varghulf, and so on. You need to realise that no matter what the Saurus will still have few to none uses, and what you really need is large hammer units that aren't affected by psychology and which can pull off incredible combined charges because of the small frontage. I think the obvious ranged abilities of Stegadons completely offset their lack of grinding power in later combat phases. Atleast you need to stop talking about Saurus as something that can receive charges. They can't. They can provide lots of crap WS S4 attacks though with nearly dwarfish movement values all the while being affected by psychology unlike all the top dogs. If Zombies are a problem a single unit of 12-15 could be worth considering, but it has to be flee all proper charges and needs Stegadon support. For multiple attacks though I'd just use the Saurus cavalry, since they're a lot more mobile and cause fear.

Why on earth do they suck? They gained one stat and gained one point in cost. They're just as good or better than before.

How are they anywhere near as good as before? The only thing they gained was points cost, and they lost scouting.

ah i know they need priest on engine of god , thats why i included they were good at shooting ( i was refering to stegadon spams ) where there is a whole line of mixed stegadon in front.

like .G....G.
s.....s...........s.....s.

where even if they get locked up / charged the engine will do its thing during combat too.

To snowden:

They went up a point and gained a point of leadership. With the cold-blooded rule, this makes them surprisingly hard to panic.

They are still amazing since they they fill the core choices for 210pts. No scouting sadly means Lizardmen players won't get the automatic +1 for finishing first, but it will let them counter-deploy to set up favorable positions for the stegadons.

Arion wrote:I don't believe in math hammer. It is based on probability and and does not take into account the tactics of the players.

I don't either, but in a game that ENTIRELY relies on dice for resolution, it sure doesn't hurt to play the odds...

How are they anywhere near as good as before? The only thing they gained was points cost, and they lost scouting.

Like Zoned already hinted, the scouting was there only to gain the +1 for starting the game. The Skinks are always deployed to screen the more vulnerable targets regardless of being scouting or not. I have never used any other core choices except ten man Skink skirmishers units with blowpipes. I usually gave one unit out of three scouting, and not being able to do it anymore isn't a big loss.

In the current book I like Cold Ones over Kroxigors just because; but to each their own. I have the models.

Don't forget they Cause Fear; or at least they used to.

Kroxigors cause fear too, in fact, i think there will be several time this may save me with the mixed units.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Therion, though I think you'll see Temple Guard in there more often than not, except the Stegadon you lose from Special would be made up by the priest running on an EoTG (if only to get a Level 3 to go with the Slaan). Plus the EoTG "innate" abilities are just good anyway.

I think that with the Slaan discipline to force a caster within 24" to discard 6's, and the fact that you can pump out a high number of DD would mean you can deal with VC better than most.

Core will still be all skinks. Saurus may seem nice, but they're going to have a hard time keeping up with the rest of the list, and the only "good" config I can see is units of 10-12 with spears, and even then, I'd rather spend the points on other stuff.

Special is for the Temple Guard for the Slaan and a mix between Stegs & Terradons as points allow, and they really screwed the pooch in Rare - again the stegs just outshine the rest.

snowden wrote:I expect most tournament list to consist of large numbers of Saurus blocks with spears, backed up by terradons, cold one cav, and kroxigors.

Hey, I hope so! (Since that is what I'm planning on fielding )

Quick question- what is the best unit size for terradons? 3,4,5? Enough to be effective but not so much that they get targetted too much or are overkill for what they do... For kroxigors I heard the optimum unit size is 4, and for saurus a 6-wide block if possible.

Thanks!

Kroxies are now just for adding killiness to ranked skink units.

While I applaud the attempt to make a lizardmen list with lizardmen, in the ultra competitive meta game it's all about steggies. M6 can get the charge on M7, especially when using bait skinks and the like (either you charge or continue to take 20 poisoned shots). EoTG may not have the best save, bit it is great support an works a number on VC and Daemons (S5 no AS is pretty painful).

Stubborn re-rollable cold blooded LD 6 isn't perfect (can't they use the general's LD?) but should be somewhere around LD 8+, so not terrible even if you do screw up an get charged. And with 5-6 steggies, losing one is hardly the end of the world. Don't forget that terradons marchblock, too.

The Engine abilities are pretty good. Your scroll caddy gets an extra die, and you get a monsterous creature that can protect units from long range fire, make casting easier, or punish units close by with shooting.

They seem to work better escorting skink and saurus units and acting as a countercharge, where as special stegadons are more for forcing an opponent into range.

In all it seems the Lizardmen list was leveled, good units were toned down and poor units improved slightly, although not to the degree we've seen in the elf lists. The loss of sacred spawnings is the biggest hitter.

I'm sorry I'm just not seeing the "good units were toned down" thing.

Skirmishing Skinks w/ Blowpipes = Best Core Choice, as before

Saurus - Meh, with a slight upswing. Still blatantly inferior to the above in terms of both utility and meshing with the rest of the army.

Krox - Nerfed, and I don't know why. S7 was great, they were fantastic but they weren't abusive really, they were just a tool.

Saurus Cav - Generally poor, except with the banner, which was still very expensive and not as survivable as comparable cav....and they're still relatively poor for what they cost.

Terradons - Ok, good unit with mild nerf, but they'll still exist to do their job.

Sallies - Big nerf, but we all saw it coming. But the HBMC conspiracy theory holds true - GW not only nerfed them, but increased the cost at the same time. WTF?

Really, the only thing GW did was make the Stegadon the de-facto choice for just about every slot past core. Hero's? Engine of the Gods! Special? Stegadons! Rare? More Stegadons! Seriously, the only reason to take something other than Stegs in special is the mandatory unit to hide your Slaan and the WM hunters.

If anything the list got a bit more blatant in "what's good" than before.