Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**EDIT** Alrighty all.

This list is now out of date. The final version of this list can be seen here. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232770.page

Ok its been almost a month since we put this thing out there for all you wonderfull games to see.

Do we have any playtest feedback at all? Over at the KK forums we have been going round in circles trying to resolve some final issues with the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarlocs.

If anyone has some feedback ideas on these 2 units (or anything else in the dex) it would be great. We can then post up n ask what you think about our potential changes and go from there.

First off I like your format and how you stayed true to the original rules and the kroot background. I just read through the codex and jutted down my impressions. One thing that I felt was a problem with the original rules is that the units where too much like each other, I feel they require a little more distinction between the units.

Kroot Rifles: I dislike how you change the guns from having true grit to counting as two close combat weapons I feel this is a little unrealistic and gives too much power to an already decent firearm.

Master shaman: I like the notion of a shaman character; in addition to having a witchblade give him a psychic power that allows for rerolling Ld test for nearby units - like the eldar powers of fortune or guide, but for leadership. And perhaps another that gives a save against psychic powers.

Prey Shaper: needs an addition rule to add flavor and tactical usability. Maybe give him a rule saying that you can place the stalker kindred within 6 inches of him like a teleporter homer instead of rolling for deepstrike or even giving them the ability to assault after Deep Striking– this would represent the Shaper using his scouting to aid the ambush.

Baggage Great Knarloc pack: Perhaps give it a special rule allowing kroots within 6 inches to reroll misses due to the extra ammo carried by the Great Knarloc

Stalker kindred: I like the deep strike assaults

Knarloc Riders – Give them flanking attacks that allow them to come in from a table edge adjacent to the enemy’s deployment edge - didn’t the original rules have them armed with hunting rifles?

I always dislike the vulture kindred, they seemed cartoony and desperate. I would like to have a more suitable unit replace them.

Hounds: need a rule like “sic em boys” all hounds leave the unit and must advance on a chosen target unit attacking them if possible. The all hound unit benefits from rage, fearless, and furious assault – the benefits are lost if they manage to assault and destroy chosen unit, may then rejoin shapter and kroot handlers.

Fire power: The kroot list needs some anti-tank option that is also in keeping with their relative lack of technology. My ideas give the kroots the option to take demo charges and maybe a large one-shot Strength 8 Ap 4 Assault gun. The gun and charges probably could be limited to one specialized heavy squad and maybe some characters. Maybe allow Baggage Great Knarloc pack to recharge weapons.

ok, from a quick scan:


why are great gnarlocs not MC's?
they are large enough.



shapers allways have more wounds than the rest of thier unit right?
gnarloc rider herd shaper has the same wounds as a basic model.
i would drop the basic riders to 2 wounds.



thats all i really picked up on for now, but the idea about using the baggage gnarloc for re-rolls would make sense and give it some use aswell.


also, maybe the possibility for a mounted CC unit?
neither gnarloc riders or trackers are any good in combat.
could allways give them the option for pistol + CC wep, or even a hunting lance of some description.

You might want to watch for Kroot list being over-reliant on scavenged equipment. I could easily envision lists where every single shaper is armed with an eviscerator and a plamsa/melta gun with the kroot being nothing more than meat shields.

Perhaps a rule limiting the number of acquired weaponry. Like 3 for every 1000 points not counting tau weapons.

One area to explore is the kroots own native weaponry. A good close-combat weapon could be a poisoned spear that wounds on a 4+. Other fluffy kroot weapons should be created so they aren’t overly dependent on alien technology.

Poisons, chemicals/potions and crude explosives could be explored as themes for kroot weapons. Maybe a guess range anti-tank weapon or a gun that immobiles tanks by jamming tracks. You could always create more Pech wildlife that the Kroot have weaponized.

The main problem is creating a fluffy kroot list that is also capable of competing against other armies. Use the old GWS list as a base, but the list needs to be expanded in order to by competitive. Again, I like what you have so far, but the list is not complete if you are trying to create a true army codex.

PS What have the play testers been telling you?

Another weapon idea Hand-held Crossbow with poison or exploding arrows.

FINALLY some feedback!

PS What have the play testers been telling you?

NOT MUCH. A few of us on Kompletely Kroot have been testing it as much as we can, but we have not been getting much feedback from outside the site :(

Kroot Rifles: I dislike how you change the guns from having true grit to counting as two close combat weapons I feel this is a little unrealistic and gives too much power to an already decent firearm.

The Rifle was never True grit in any of the rules for the Kroot. The 5th Ed Tau FAQ makes the Kroot rifle count as 2 close combat weapons, so we just used the rules they made.

Master shaman: I like the notion of a shaman character; in addition to having a witchblade give him a psychic power that allows for rerolling Ld test for nearby units - like the eldar powers of fortune or guide, but for leadership. And perhaps another that gives a save against psychic powers.

The next version of the shaman that we have worked out after our own sites play tests will have the option to replace his Rifle with a "Shamans staff" Its a Psychich hood with a 18 inch range. We have also added a power that allows him to convert a single terrain feature within 12 inches of him into woods at the start of the game.

Prey Shaper: needs an addition rule to add flavor and tactical usability. Maybe give him a rule saying that you can place the stalker kindred within 6 inches of him like a teleporter homer instead of rolling for deepstrike or even giving them the ability to assault after Deep Striking– this would represent the Shaper using his scouting to aid the ambush.

Interesting ideas. Ill pass this back to the site.

Knarloc Riders – Give them flanking attacks that allow them to come in from a table edge adjacent to the enemy’s deployment edge - didn’t the original rules have them armed with hunting rifles?

The Idea behind that is what you use the Prey shaper for. Give him blood of the stalker and attach him to the unit and he allows them to outflank. The Trackers were the Riders that were armed with hunting rifles. The trackers may still be armed with the Hunting rifles if you want to.

Hounds: need a rule like “sic em boys” all hounds leave the unit and must advance on a chosen target unit attacking them if possible. The all hound unit benefits from rage, fearless, and furious assault – the benefits are lost if they manage to assault and destroy chosen unit, may then rejoin shapter and kroot handlers.

We are still trying to decided if we still want to unclude the old "Release the Hounds" rule. Basically they cause a single hit per hound on a unit that manages to fall back from assult from a unit with hounds.

Fire power: The kroot list needs some anti-tank option that is also in keeping with their relative lack of technology. My ideas give the kroots the option to take demo charges and maybe a large one-shot Strength 8 Ap 4 Assault gun. The gun and charges probably could be limited to one specialized heavy squad and maybe some characters. Maybe allow Baggage Great Knarloc pack to recharge weapons.

Again some interesting ides. Ill pass them back to the site.

why are great gnarlocs not MC's?
they are large enough.

yeah we know. We have finaly managed to decide to allow the Great Knarlocs attacks to count as Power weapon hits. So they are not MC's but they are still dangerous with Power weapons and Rending combined.

neither gnarloc riders or trackers are any good in combat.
could allways give them the option for pistol + CC wep, or even a hunting lance of some description.

The Knarloc Riders for the next release of the rules are going to have Rending combat attacks (3 attacks Including the Rifle) The shaper (and prey shaper) wont have the power weapon option But they will cost less. We have taken inspiration from the Deamons Codex Fiends

You might want to watch for Kroot list being over-reliant on scavenged equipment. I could easily envision lists where every single shaper is armed with an eviscerator and a plamsa/melta gun with the kroot being nothing more than meat shields.

One idea that was shotdown fairly early on was to allow Every 7th Kroot in a unit to have access to the Shapers equipment list. Similar to the Space wolves.

Thanks for the Feedback guys. Ill cross post your posts to the KK forums n also post any replys back.

Turbo_MMX wrote:

Kroot Rifles: I dislike how you change the guns from having true grit to counting as two close combat weapons I feel this is a little unrealistic and gives too much power to an already decent firearm.

The Rifle was never True grit in any of the rules for the Kroot. The 5th Ed Tau FAQ makes the Kroot rifle count as 2 close combat weapons, so we just used the rules they made.

Sorry my mistake, but I still feel that the combat bonus the rifles give should not be combined with special weapons like power weapons.

The next version of the shaman that we have worked out after our own sites play tests will have the option to replace his Rifle with a "Shamans staff" Its a Psychich hood with a 18 inch range. We have also added a power that allows him to convert a single terrain feature within 12 inches of him into woods at the start of the game.

Not a fan of the psychic power that creates woods. I think GWS was pushing it when they gave it to the wood elves. Their powers need to be more shamanistic like ogre magic. Have their psychic powers work by enhancing your units or cursing your opponents – no fireballs or chain lightening.

Hounds: need a rule like “sic em boys” all hounds leave the unit and must advance on a chosen target unit attacking them if possible. The all hound unit benefits from rage, fearless, and furious assault – the benefits are lost if they manage to assault and destroy chosen unit, may then rejoin shapter and kroot handlers.

We are still trying to decided if we still want to unclude the old "Release the Hounds" rule. Basically they cause a single hit per hound on a unit that manages to fall back from assult from a unit with hounds.

I feel the release the hounds rule does not go far enough. Right now the unit plays as kroot squad that trades some shooting for fleet. My rule “sic em” gives the kroot player a reason to field hounds and also shows the kroots fluffy disregard for the hounds lives, maybe they use potions to enrage the hounds before releasing them. I also meant for them to count as calvary - I don't know if that came across in my first post.

why are great gnarlocs not MC's?
they are large enough.

yeah we know. We have finaly managed to decide to allow the Great Knarlocs attacks to count as Power weapon hits. So they are not MC's but they are still dangerous with Power weapons and Rending combined.

This seems like a good fix, an elephant can't peel open a tank after all - 40k needs some general rules to represent large animals that are not greater daemons or hive tyrants

The eviscerator-armed shaper in a large group of kroot is a surprising viscous combat unit. I have a 16 Kroot squad with a chainsaw shaper. I played them as allies for my armies and found them very brutal when dealing with vehicles and monstrous creatures. Combat squads suffered greatly at their hands – terminators, assault marines, and other expensive assault units have to go through 19 wounds of kroot or face 3 hits from a strength 8 chainfist. With their field craft and rifles at 8 points they are a steal – probably the best troops in the game considering their point cost. I think the evisverator has to be restricted to some degree, just to keep the army in line.

Two new unit ideas:
A Kroot monster: forgot where I read it, but there was a story in which two kroot brothers had to slay a large grendal like monster kroot – a victim of unrestrained consumption? Put a kroot ox head on the body of a Gorger seems like an easy enough conversion.
Rule wise: a T 5 Rending non-monstrous unit that might attack friendly units on a roll of a 1 if more then 12 inches away from the shaman.

Kroot hawks: flying unit with possible deepstike - replaces the kroot vultures (I really hate that unit)
Maybe make it so a Shaman is required to take these units.

I really think introducing new kroot creatures is a nice way of fleshing out the Kroot army list.

Just Got a Major Epiphany

The kroot list is really lacking in anti-tank, but giving them powerful anti-tank weaponry is counter to their fluff. So the trick is to create a powerful anti-tank option that is primitive enough for the kroot to make use of the tactic.

First off a little history lesson, during WW2 Russia trained dogs to run underneath enemy tanks. They strapped bombs on the dogs with a lever sticking off their backs. The dogs would run underneath the German tanks, lever would be pushed down, and the bomb would detonate destroying the tanks from underneath..... I feel at this point I need to state that I am not a fan of the practice- don’t protest me PETA.

But, the kroots could use kroot hounds for the same purpose. It is a low tech, but very effective means to destroy vehicles. Anti-tank kroot hounds would obey my “sic em boys” rule, but can only be used on vehicles (they are not trained to go after carnifexes after all). Once they assault the vehicle it takes a strength 8 ordnance hit on its rear armour, the hound is obviously lost. I think the power of the unit is offset by the fact that the opponent can gun down the hounds before they reach his tanks, or assault them with with his squads.

Very easy to convert, just a simple green stuff backpack with an antenna or lever on the back of a few kroot hounds.

I'm liking the Kroot bomb idea. The Orks have something similar but don't let it stop you.

Grunt13 wrote:

Turbo_MMX wrote:

Kroot Rifles: I dislike how you change the guns from having true grit to counting as two close combat weapons I feel this is a little unrealistic and gives too much power to an already decent firearm.

The Rifle was never True grit in any of the rules for the Kroot. The 5th Ed Tau FAQ makes the Kroot rifle count as 2 close combat weapons, so we just used the rules they made.

Sorry my mistake, but I still feel that the combat bonus the rifles give should not be combined with special weapons like power weapons.

Sorry I reread the rules and see that is already the case. I was mistaken by the Shaman witchblade attacks – see below.

warpcrafter wrote:I'm liking the Kroot bomb idea. The Orks have something similar but don't let it stop you.

Squig launcher?


Some Special Characters ideas:

Purist Shaman Character: Army is not allowed to field alien weapons. But all models gain +1 Ld free and something like protection of our ancestors (something like a 6+ invul. save).

Character and bodyguards riding a Greater Knarloc: No guns just a bunch of kroot on the back of a knarloc decked out for combat. Give them some charms that make it difficult to shoot them and poison weapons.

Maybe an intelligent kroot monster that ate some really freaky stuff over the years. Chaos? Tyranids? Weird Aliens? Roll to see what power the character has ever turn (spit acid/ psychic attacks/ can't thick of anything else at the moment). I image him looking like the beastman spawn character, but with a kroot head.

Other Thoughts:

I don’t really like the signature evolutionary adaptations, never did – I feel they should be scrapped. I not against the concept of altered kroot, but I think the rules take it too far. Being able to add a point to a characteristic is pretty major adjustment. Perhaps if it was more like the doctrines in codex imperial guard.

For the Shaman it should be a weapon that counts as a witchblade and that weapon should be two handed. Farseers/warlocks only have 1 attack in their profile for their witchblades – it wouldn’t be proper if the kroot shaman could get so many attacks with the same kind of weapon. Maybe go a bit further and say using the weapon as a witchblade counts as a psychic power. That or reduce the weapon’s impact.

http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Ork_Tankbustas_1.jpg

Hound bombs idea sounds cool... alas poor puppies.

As for a unit, have you looked into croot roughriders or something similar? Could count as bikes (the rough terrain test being them finding an alien rabbit hole etc) and have a kroot rifle and demo pack. The demo pack would be a str 10 ap - small blast that scatters 1 d6 inches regardless of BS. I think it would be fluffy and it gives me visions of the bird cavalry from Nausica of the valley of the wind in a wierd kind of way.

Ordnance hit? That might be pushing it.

If I remember my history correctly it was an unmitigated failure. They had trained the dogs by putting food under the vehicles, unfortunately the used the only tanks available for training (ie their own) and on release the dogs did exactly what they were trained to do and ran back towards the Russian vehicles, who had no choice but to gun the dogs down! Much hilarity ensured I am sure :-)

However I do like the idea!

This idea was indeed scrapped by the soviets just two weeks after initial deployment, as the russians had lost 3 times the tanks that the germans had, to the poochbombs...

And much like the Soviets the Kroot didnt really go for it either. Didnt wanna rip Off the orks too much

But in honesty it was an idea we played around with in the early list but it didnt make the cut in the end. But we are going to do up a list of the more wild ideas that didnt make it after we get this list done.

As for a unit, have you looked into croot roughriders or something similar

Yep, we have 2 Cav units and 1 Cav HQ in the list