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....dont the more boring lists wind up being the better ones though?


HQ

Chapter Master-Jump Pack, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Artificer, Digital, Melta-bombs
Chaplain-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Digital, Melta-bombs

TROOPS

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta (each squad adjustable-flamer/plasma cannon, Melta/Missle...have to decide the best combo)
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs
-Rhino (just a single for when "you gotta get out there")

FAST ATTACK

10xAssault Marines-2xFlamer
-Sarge with 2xlightning claws, Melta-bombs

10xAssault Marines-2xFlamer
-Sarge with 2xlightning claws, Melta-bombs

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator w/Twin Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

=1850

Anti-tank consists of Pred, Orbital Bomb, and tacticals running mid feild first turn for good range with MM's.

Anti-Horde consists of Assault Marines and the fact that this is basically a marine horde....62 marines.

People have been pulling away from power weapons lately for the fist instead. I think the tactical sergeants are ESPECIALLY just that in this list....tactical. Strong shot with the pistol, and plenty of attacks in CC with a weapon that ignores saves...for 5 more points than a 'Fist.

Also, something I was thinking about, not dumping TONS of expensive CC weaponry on characters (like giving the master Relic/SS as usual) frees up a few points to distribute elsewhere in the list. I tried to keep my characters pretty tame...but they've still got lots of gear, just nothing particularly expensive.

just one question, why plasma pistols? They are not exactly the most useful weapon in the game, drop all them and you can fit in things like the relic blade

Really Deadshane I expected a more powrful list than this from you...

As a marine horde you suffer from being well a bad tough horde. Orks succeed because they have 180 boys gettiing a 5+ cover save and they don't have 1 attack each in shooting or combat and they can fit killy stuff in there like 45 lootas...

Your anti tank is TERIBLE you'll be dissapointed in your orbital bombardment you'll find that the pred will get popped since most armies have to bring long range anti tank to compete now days since it's your only tank i'd be surprised it ever got s hot off past turn 1.

Your anti horde is 20 assault marines and and a bunch of bolters... a charge from the assualt marines will be unsopported and suicidal so I suspect that you'll use them as a countercharge element. So playing that way hereis how every DECENT army will pick you apart.

Your Turn 1
you advance keep the assualt marines behind the tacs for a cover save.

your 18'' away now

Your Turn 1
ork horde advance shoot you to pieces turn 2 charge good game.
nob bikers- multi charge good game
dual lash lash you together obliterate lash you together obliterate repeat...
nidzilla you walked intorange and without tanks... good game.
immo sisters... yeah...
Daemons deep strike run closer to you oh wait your a marine horde and i'm a blood crusher good game.
Blood Angels charge good game
grey knights kill a marine squad with 3 land raiders shooting unload your 3 PAGK units and shoot tehm to pieces then charge that's 3 dead marine units... hop back into raiders claim OBJ's and laugh at the assualt marines.
eldar mech and S6 spam is theonly way to run them now both will kill you
Dark eldar... good game

Do I need to continue...

just one question, why plasma pistols? They are not exactly the most useful weapon in the game, drop all them and you can fit in things like the relic blade

I was thinking someone would comment on them.

I know its an "interesting" choice of wargear, but I'm trying to figure on how to make the units a bit more "tactical".

Instead of spending 25 pts on a 'fist, the Sergeants spend 30 on BOTH CC ability AND Shooting...making them more "tactical". Considering that I'll be using combat tactics quite a bit with this list, (no damned Special Characters to take it away) I'm thinking that I can see a lot of shooting out of the Sergeants.

Of course the other option is to give them NOTHING...saving 120 pts. The Tacticals dont look nearly as good at that point however, and this list is all tactical almost.

Marine lists are always boring arent they :/

Personally I am of the type that if I take a tank, everything is in a tank. I dont like taking a couple. I usually take triples of whatever tank is in my heavy support.

But the list isnt bad, lots of bodies for 1850. I think the main weakness will be 3 raider armies, dark eldar, stuffs like that.

I wouldn't mind the list so much if it wasn't for footslogging multi-meltas.

At BEST you move up first turn and get a shot with 1-2. With a 24 inch range, yes, you can then hit enemy transports directly in front of the squads in question, but you then limit yourself horribly with target choice (firing at angles increasing your distance, disabling the focus fire option on a particularly troublesome enemy vehicle).

At worst, you either: dont get first turn. or B) Face an army with MC's and vehicles that don't have to go straight in front of you, and they just plunk away from angles making you string out your tactical squads in order to try and take single strength 8 potshots.


I don't think foot marines are particularly good, but I still think they're playable. Foot multi-meltas just aren't. If you're going to do that, you're much better served by putting a lascannon in, and if you don't like holding your folks back like that, combat squad so the lascannon half sits behind and the rest of it moves up. In kp games: just don't combat squad.

It's not like with a foot marine list that isn't CC oriented you're itching to get into combat, the more turns you have at range firing, the better for you. As was said, your Assault marines are more of a countercharge element, as such, theres no rush to get them in either.

If I played foot marines, I'd be thinking two things:

Foot is susceptible to lash.
Foot is susceptible to assault.

As such, I'd try to maximize my time at range. Meaning longer range weapons (LC's over MM's). And probably take an HQ/Elite slot guy that boosts up my cover (fortifies) it to a 3+, allowing me to have the edge when simply trading fire with an opposing force, and also allowing a 5 man combat squad with a lascannon a pretty darn good chance of surviving the game.

Thats all I can think of for now, its not a bad list, it just has certain flaws (its AT) imo.

I played this list recently:

Vulkan
5 assault terms

10 tacs MM + junk

10 tacs MM + junk

Redeemer
Redeemer
Crusader

I found that I would actually prefer to start the multimeltas out on foot. With the raiders, if you deploy in the tank, you dont have the option of sitting still and firing first turn if something flies in.

Also, the big appeal of MMs if that you plop a unit with one on an objective and watch armor scream like bugs bunny.

Agreed with GM one predator and no other vehicle equals one dead predator. You are playing on-foot army so spend those points on troops...

Fists or equivalent are needed to deal with ork nobz and not just one but multiples.

If you want to stay on-foot, try fitting in a devastator for more firepower or some termies as a counterattack force.

If you love your predator, get some razorbacks or rhinos so you can preserve those troops with some cover.

yermom wrote:Really Deadshane I expected a more powrful list than this from you...

eh, I've always seemed to have trouble making good marine lists for some reason. This is probably no different.

Your anti tank is TERIBLE you'll be dissapointed in your orbital bombardment you'll find that the pred will get popped since most armies have to bring long range anti tank to compete now days since it's your only tank i'd be surprised it ever got s hot off past turn 1.

Interesting veiw, I cannot really see how an army with so much short and long range MELTA is TERRIBLE with anti-tank. Every Character, Sergeants on up to the Master have Melta-bombs as well. With Combat tactics, and 40 marines I dont really think I need to be afraid of 'owning' mid feild.

Your anti horde is 20 assault marines and and a bunch of bolters... a charge from the assualt marines will be unsopported and suicidal so I suspect that you'll use them as a countercharge element. So playing that way hereis how every DECENT army will pick you apart.

Your Turn 1
you advance keep the assualt marines behind the tacs for a cover save.

your 18'' away now

Your Turn 1
ork horde advance shoot you to pieces turn 2 charge good game.
nob bikers- multi charge good game
dual lash lash you together obliterate lash you together obliterate repeat...
nidzilla you walked intorange and without tanks... good game.
immo sisters... yeah...
Daemons deep strike run closer to you oh wait your a marine horde and i'm a blood crusher good game.
Blood Angels charge good game
grey knights kill a marine squad with 3 land raiders shooting unload your 3 PAGK units and shoot tehm to pieces then charge that's 3 dead marine units... hop back into raiders claim OBJ's and laugh at the assualt marines.
eldar mech and S6 spam is theonly way to run them now both will kill you
Dark eldar... good game

Do I need to continue...

See, these sort of arguements have never held any water with me. Since thru good maneuvering, deployment, terrain usage, you can do things with armies that arent simply apparent within the list. Your example might be good....if we're playing in a desert and I dont see what you're doing. This sort of arguement also NEVER takes in the actual "mission" its always, "you do this, then I kill you" bleh!

Ork horde-sure, there's a problem, gonna be a hard game unless I can outmaneuver him.

Nob Bikers-Well, I think I have enough str 8 to make him hurt, especially if by maneuvering I can control the multi-charge, but whatever. I laugh when people always bring up "Nob bikers" anyway, cause what really is ANY army going to do against them? short of bringing two landraiders full of assault terminators. I'm not going to let the broken "Nob Biker" dictate to me what army that I'm playing.

Dual Lash- Sort of the same thing but to a lesser degree.

NidZilla-This list could ace a nidzilla list. I can see how it can anyway.

Immo sisters- Will be emo-sisters after the Immo's get within MM range. Rhino chassis that get within 12" of my troopers wont last a turn...I dont care how many you have. Then we fight in HtH which (barring of course the cannoness) sisters blow chunks at.

Daemons-Still considering them, but honestly, again, I can easily see how to beat daemons, all I would need would be a Libby with Null-zone and they'd be finished.

Blood Angels-HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I cannot remember a game against Blood Angels where I didnt stomp the stuffing out of them...that armylist is horrible. I cannot imagine a blood angel list that could fight this on its best day.

Grey Knights-A good Grey Knight player wouldnt plan on charging this army...they would shoot. Funny thing is, your scenario here is stifled by my troopers simply sitting in terrain....Grey knights dont have grenades. LR's dont have the frag launchers, and good GK armies only have 1 crusader MAX. (again another example why this line of "example giving" doesnt really work when deciding army composition)

Eldar Mech-I Don't think could compete against all the melta....I could be wrong.

Dark Eldar-you got me, hopefully I can avoid the 1 DE player in the tournement.

I agree. I hate those arguments, especially when I make a new, different list and the local people dont understand it.

Although I understand the dislike for the "rock paper scissor" mentality when building a list, to some extent you do have to consider potential "match ups" but in more vague terms, ie, a mech opponent, a horde opponent, etc., and I think you should still be open to tweaking the list, no one gets it perfect on the first shot after all.

But yea, its not a bad idea to bring a bit of psy-defense for things like lash, eldar, etc, but against nob biker.

Blah, don't let that lameness dictate your day, you'll rarely run up against it. As much as it gets talked about, few people have spent the time to convert/buy that army, so its a fairly small portion of your meta game.

Okay if you don't like that style arguement then hows about this one.

Since your going to have to keep every unit reletiviely close by to each other otherwise you'll be picked appart piecemeal since your longest range weapon is 24" for the most part. And you foot slog it wont be too hard for the enemy to outrange you by simplyg going second and deploying as far away from you as possible or if the enemy wants to rip you appart in CC than he caan just deploy near by and charge. I run into a simmilar problem with my nids being out range and out maneuvered. To overcome this I surround the shooty aspects of my list with gaunts and have outflanking stealers in case i'm out ranged. Since you can't do either without giving uo very large chunks of points I think that the list would not succeed due to the fact that you don't have throow away units.

For this I would consider scouts or rhinos or better yet razorbacks to surround you and protect your flanks from the enemy.

Perhaps dropthe plasma pistols (tactical sure but in this case tactical = wasted points on subpar weapons, s that worth it just to attach a useless buzz word?) and switch though Multi Meltas over to Lascannons. This gives you range, which is a big help. I'd also take a powerfist over a power weapon almost any day at this point. The trend towards powerfists didn't just happen for the heck of it, it happened because it offers greater utility (powerfist makes the sarge more "tactical" by making him a threat againt infantry by ignoring saves and against armor/big things by being high strength).

I think I'd be much more scared of a small unit of SS/whatever weapon Vanguards (very expensive points wise, but they hit like a ton of bricks, SS makes them fairly survivable and heroic intervetion can be very cool if you don't attach a character to them) with a Chaplain than I would a 10 man assault squad. I also think the Chapter Master would be better served as a Librarian with Gate to help your troops units move around. Gating onto ojective in the last turn of the game can be deal breaking and literally result in a game win. the Orbital Strike from the SM doesn't feel like it has as much of an impact with this list as it does with other Marine lists, maybe due to th amount of bodies you're putting on the table.

I doubt Shane will go for Lascannons though.

Yea, they pretty much stink for cracking tanks.

Vanguard? Not in a serious list.

Deadshane1 wrote:NidZilla-This list could ace a nidzilla list. I can see how it can anyway.

Nidzilla would definately kill this list. If you deploy near the edges, the outflanking Genestealers will rip you apart, if you don't than you'll get all those Barbed Strangler pie plates on you every turn while his Carnifexes outrange you (never thought I'd ever say that).

Deadshane1 wrote:Immo sisters- Will be emo-sisters after the Immo's get within MM range. Rhino chassis that get within 12" of my troopers wont last a turn...I dont care how many you have. Then we fight in HtH which (barring of course the cannoness) sisters blow chunks at.

I think you missed the part in between the rhino killing and assaults, which is called Divine Guidance, an Immolator spam Witchhunter army would absolutely destroy MEQ in a close ranged fire fight (which is what this will become). Also, your list doesn't nearly have the ability to kill all 10-12 Rhino/Immolators that will be coming at you.

Deadshane1 wrote:Daemons-Still considering them, but honestly, again, I can easily see how to beat daemons, all I would need would be a Libby with Null-zone and they'd be finished.

Bloodcrusher spam absolutely murders this list. He won't bring his scoring Plaguebearers anywhere near you and you don't have the mobility to go and get them. The Plaguebearers secure objectives you can't reach because the Bloodcrushers would eat you alive.

Deadshane1 wrote:Eldar Mech-I Don't think could compete against all the melta....I could be wrong.

I think someone should read the Wave Serpent's Energy Field rules again.


Add to this list the already mentioned Dark Eldar, Nob Bikers, Ork Horde and Lash Chaos that would absolutely destroy it and you have a list that is nowhere near top tier. Also, there is one threat for your list that hasn't been mentioned yet, Space Marines with 2x TH/SS Terminators in Land Raiders. Yes, you would kill the Land Raiders, but not from afar, so the Terminators will see combat with you. Once they do, it'll be over.

In my opinion, marine hordes are just not viable. The best shooty marine horde builds at the moment can be made with the Black Templars list, as they still have access to the heavy weapons in small Tactical Squads and can still take two assault cannons in a minimum sized Terminator unit.

If Vanguard, who are able to be much more lethal than Assault Marines, have no place in a serious list then what makes ASsault Marines serious? They're a lot cheaper, but that is literally all they have going for them.

Don't underestimate Vanguards. Perhaps in your list they don't have a place really, but if you've got a couple of locator beacons on the table they can drop without scatter and charge in the same turn. Scary stuff right there. Hitting like Assault Terminators the same turn they deepstrike is very cool.

Lascannons give you range, something you don't have. Any aggressive army will probably be in close combat with you the turn after you move forward to try and get into gun range. If you don't move forward, they come to you and you get a turn to shoot them. If your army had more options in it for mobility, I could see all the closer range weapons working better. They're also better at popping high AV tanks than Multimeltas that are outside of 12" (which you'll probably wind up trying to do pretty frequently).

Perhaps drop an Assault Squad and the Chapter Master in favor o some combi'd out Sternguard with a pod and a Gate Librarian?

I'm suggesting things that can possibly fill the gaps in the list, which are the utter lack of long ranged firepower (which is silly in combination with almost no mobility), and hard hitting CC units. The Assault Marines simply don't hit super hard these days. The squad with the Chaplain can bring some pain, the the other unit will be mediocre at best. Big, scary, dedicated CC units will munch both of them (Nob Bikes, TH/SS Termies, Genestealers, Harlequins, etc) without much trouble.

This list looks quite noobish. Why didn't you take Vulkan FTW?

G

Let's be constructive here. I guess when you created the "What do you think is the best way to run Tactical Marines?" thread on Tactics you were already thinking about this list. Let's consider this an extension of that thread.

BTW, I dislike with the whole rock-paper-scissors line of thought for making lists, but I won't discredit it, it works for people. But I think going overly paranoid about a list in particular goes in detriment of your list, for example, Green Blow Fly's paranoia with Biker Nobs in his marine list thread.

However I don't like the idea of using Tacs as "Jack of all trades, master of none" either, mostly because I'm of the idea that if you're using points on something, you'd better be using it all the time, and that unit is doing what it does best and avoiding what it does worse. I guess you disagree and that's fine, each tools his list to his playstyle, but for example, when I see your list I can only think "geez, how many more models I could get in there" and stuff like that.

For example, I think Tactical Squads just shouldn't be tooled towards CC. The only model in the squad that can be tooled and is decent at it is the Sergeant and I think it just goes in detriment of the rest of the squad, who are 9 models with only 1 attack: they aren't Tau-suck at CC, but they aren't good. I mean, yes, CC is a fact of life in 5th, against most armies that **** is coming, nothing you can do about it. But you got 9 other guys who aren't cheap at all, but are good at shooting, can take a lot of punishment, can take heavy weapons and got a great rule going for them (Combat Tactics) to keep firing away should CC happen. You're spending 35 Pts on every squad, 140 Pts total to do that and I don't like it, but like I said, you can do what you like. 35 Pts is the cost of a Rhino.

I think Tactical Marines, at least how they are in this list are oriented towards occupy and deny. You get a Flamer for free or a Meltagun for cheap. Those aren't really meant for assaulting if you're on foot, because your marines are slow and they don't have a bunch of attacks or bodies, they're deterrants for vehicles or hordes: "ok, you can come, but you know I'm gonna give it to you in ass, HARD!". The heavy weapons selection just goes to compliment the rest of your army. Here, it just so happens the marines are the core. I prefer the Multi Melta. If I'm going to deny a zone of the table I'm gonna take the middle, where my other marines can shoot the most and the opponent can move the less. The Multi Melta might not be amazing on foot, because you are slow and you can't move to fire but anyone with half a brain would never get within 12'' of them with vehicles unless they absolutely have to (filled Land Raider). If they are light vehicles that's 24''. So, my personal choice, is the Multi Melta/Flamer Tactical Squad. Vehicles won't want to get close, and if troops are coming, well, they may not deterred by a flamer, but you're gonna do damage before and after with combat tactics and assault squads waiting for them.

Taking a Meltagun and a Multi Melta isn't efficient in my opinion because they won't want their vehicles within 12'' of the unit anyway. And against troops... 12'' is assault range. If I were taking a gunline army I'd probably take it because I'd want to have the range of the Missile Launcher or a Plasma Cannon as Heavy Weapon, and that doesn't have scare factor on heavy vehicles, plus it's a bit anti-horde already.

Something quick I just pulled out of my mind:

1x Chaplain: Jump Pack; Melta Bombs @ 120 Pts
1x Chaplain: Jump Pack; Digital Weapons @ 125 Pts
2x10 Tactical Squad: Multi Melta; Flamer; Rhino @ 410 Pts
2x10 Tactical Squad: Multi Melta; Flamer @ 340 Pts
2x10 Assault Squad: Flamer (x1); Power Fist @ 450 Pts
1x3 Attack Bike Squad: Multi Melta (x3) @ 150 Pts
3x Predator: Heavy Bolter Side Sponsons @ 255 Pts

It's my less bells and whistles, more models version of your list. Now you got 2 additional tanks, 3 attack bikes and one more rhino. You (try to) take the middle with your pair of Rhinos and your assault squads (both with reroll from chaps) followed by your foot tacs. The Predators work as your anti infantry and light vehicles, while your attack bikes work on the heavies that give you trouble, all around your 40 marines in the middle. Or something like that, I'll admit I've never played that way. I like the PF the most on the Assault squads because with the 12'' move you can get that IC and insta-kill if it's T4, it works well against everything else cuz you got ablative wounds and it has antivehicle incorporated.

My 2 cents.

I like the list posted by prophet quite a bit more, seems more punchy, cuts out the fat of unneeded upgrades, and best yet: you get to keep the high model count!

MM AB for long range AT, when needed, you still have the same concepts in your tactical squads...

Only downside is going from 10kp to 14kp, but I think what you lose in KP missions you gain greatly in survivability, objective grabbing ability, etc.

Digital weapons just seem really useless. 10 points can be spent better, in my opinion. Same with the plasma pistols. And a single predator, in this list, will attract all the anti-tank in your opponent's army for the first few turns and thus die quickly, followed by the Rhino.

Prophet's list is better, for sure. However, I might consider some alternatives for your list:
Drop one tac squad and the predator. Fill in with dual devastator squads, either lascannons, missile launchers, or plasma cannons. This keeps to all infantry, and you still have 3 tac squads to hold the line, but increases damage output significantly.
Consider a Librarian in place of the Chapter Master, or an elite inquisitor with a heirophant and a psychic hood. You could use some psychic defense, especially against Lash, which can draw your squads out of protecting each other.

Sample Marine Horde List:
Chaplain, Jump Pack
Librarian, Jump Pack, Null Zone, Force Dome
3x 10 Tac Squad, melta/multimelta, Sergeant with power weapon
2x 10 Assault Squad, 2 flamers, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer or 2LC
2x 10 Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Comes to 1750 on the nose. Not uber powerful, but that's 72 power-armored bodies to get through. You have some psychic defense and reasonable shooting, if not overpowering.

Deadshane1 wrote:....dont the more boring lists wind up being the better ones though?

haha, they do. But this list isn't boring... no offense meant

Deadshane1 wrote:
TROOPS

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta (each squad adjustable-flamer/plasma cannon, Melta/Missle...have to decide the best combo)
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs

10xTactical-Melta, Multi-Melta
-Sarge with Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Melta-Bombs
-Rhino (just a single for when "you gotta get out there")

I wanna start with your troops... I like to have a plan before every game of whether or not I'm designed to be a combat squad or not. I am always open to a funny mission/matchup making me change my mind on the fly, but these guys look almost like they are going to combat squad, but if they are, then the power weapon vexes me a little bit. If they are going to stay 10 strong, then I don't have a problem with it. I'd like to hear who its for though... and by that I mean, a list of units that you expect to be in combat with, and with whom the power weapon would have an impact.

Ultimately, I don't really like the plasma pistol power weapon combo, but I'm not going to discount your tactics and your ability to play a solid game of 40k. With the lack of heavy bolters/assault cannons from not going mechanized, I can see a need for a little bit more MC kill.

Deadshane1 wrote:
HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator w/Twin Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Make this a tri-las predator, let your plasma pistols do the work of the heavy bolters. Give it demonic possession (kronus). I diagree with the crowd about singleton vehicles if they are armor 13 and ignore shaken/stunned. If this was your only tank kill then sure, but its just your only turn 1 tank kill. If it gets popped you are still in business.

Deadshane1 wrote:
HQ

Chapter Master-Jump Pack, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Artificer, Digital, Melta-bombs
Chaplain-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Digital, Melta-bombs

FAST ATTACK

10xAssault Marines-2xFlamer
-Sarge with 2xlightning claws, Melta-bombs

10xAssault Marines-2xFlamer
-Sarge with 2xlightning claws, Melta-bombs

Ahh, now we get to the wacky part. Honestly, I have to humbly say, I don't know what the hell you plan to do with these two units. I have not and won't do the math on them charging a 'real' close combat unit. I do know from experience that the unit with the chaplain isn't going to be able to break out of a counter-charge. They are going to charge something, win, hopefully by enough to break them, then they are going to get gobbled up. I'm not sure what you plan to do with the ICs, if you are going one of each or if you'll double up and screen. I think if you doubled up the ICs and found room for a relic blade, then the IC unit could rock and roll with the big boys, (as long as they aren't assault termies, nob bikers, or skulltaker).

Deadshane1 wrote:
Also, something I was thinking about, not dumping TONS of expensive CC weaponry on characters (like giving the master Relic/SS as usual) frees up a few points to distribute elsewhere in the list. I tried to keep my characters pretty tame...but they've still got lots of gear, just nothing particularly expensive.

I think its important that the chapter master is as nasty as you can go. assault marines need serious help. I think relic/storm shield/digital needs to be on him.

But I'm just so non qualified to talk at length about assault marines. I hated them early, and I've never given them a chance since.

If you were some kind of low post count scrub, I might say, get rid of them, they are going to cost you games, but your rep is going to buy you some leeway here. I'll just say... Tell me how it goes with them. Make sure you challenge demons (who I think you'll have serious problems with) Nob bikers (who you will probably table, as your last model gets picked up... I imagine that game will be you with 1 combat squad alive and him with 20 grots alive.) Face a good LR list and lash as well.

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't have a decent shot at beating anything tier 2, nids shouldn't be a problem and tau probably won't be that tough to deal with, I can't see eldar having an answer to all of the bodies, and the others well... they aren't even that good

The title of your post almost made me not click... give yourself some more credit. I haven't seen a horde CC marine army posted here since the new book came out.

My prediction is 'crash and burn' but I'd love to hear about it... and I'm rooting for you!

First, thanx for all the comments.

Okay, while I think the above list is decent and could work I think I may have decided a different direction to go with the Vanilla codex.

I hear what a lot of people say and while I STRONGLY disagree with some things (vanguard, footsloggers weak, other things) I've made basically an entirely different list that doesnt look nearly as "boring" and covers all of the bases. More of a "toolbox" list....even though I generally hate toolboxes as a rule. One of our WC boys has been using an Eldar Toolbox lately and been having good success with it in tournement play. I'm wondering if Marines (being tactical in nature, Jack of all trades-Master of none) can pull off the same sort of game.

....funny thing is that this "Toolbox" has every unit that I really like out of the Marine codex, and I think they come together in a pretty cohesive way.

So here it is, this is pretty much what I'm going to go with I think for a Tournement 1850 list for the Marine Codex.

HQ

Chapter Master-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Artificer Armour

Chaplain-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Digital Weapons

ELITE

Techmarine-Servo Harness, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon

TROOPS

(10)Tacticals-Melta, Missle Launcher, Sergeant with Power Weapon

(10)Tacticals-Melta, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Melta, Rhino

(10)Tacticals-Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Flamer, Rhino

FAST ATTACK

(10)Assault Marines-2xFlamer, Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws

(3)Attack Bikes-3xHeavy Bolter

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade

Vindicator-Seige Blade

=1850 even



More comments please? Better? Worse?

Better, I'd be a lot more worried on the other end.

Now you have one assault unit, but its more of a beast. I don't get the techmarine. But I guess its part of your tactical marine on foot becomes assault unit approach.

But the increase in long range firepower, and the decrease in the number of tactical squads are both positive changes in my book.

An additional rhino opens up a lot more charge blocking LOS blocking, funnelling and movement options as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still of the opinion that a 'real' assault unit in a land raider, or SERIOUS short range shooting power beats a unit that assaults on tuesdays and thursdays and is a long range shooting unit on fridays, and firefighters on every other day.

Shep wrote:
Now you have one assault unit, but its more of a beast. I don't get the techmarine. But I guess its part of your tactical marine on foot becomes assault unit approach.

I'm sure he'll be quite busy keeping the 3 battle tanks up and running properly...or at least the two that fire at range. He's also there to bolster the terrain that the foot squad is in and yes....point CC defense.

Shep wrote:
But the increase in long range firepower, and the decrease in the number of tactical squads are both positive changes in my book.

Thats what I was thinking...just seems more balanced now. Toolboxy like I said, but so be it.

Shep wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm still of the opinion that a 'real' assault unit in a land raider, or SERIOUS short range shooting power beats a unit that assaults on tuesdays and thursdays and is a long range shooting unit on fridays, and firefighters on every other day.

Trying to steer away from Land Raiders in this list. Hopefully I can clobber them at range before they're able to drop a payload.