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Pretty simple a friend of mine has an Imperial Lighting and likes to run it with 4 Hellstrike missles. Last game he wanted to fire 2 of them into a single unit in one turn, however my arguement was that they are Ordinance and thus you can only fire one, and also can't shoot the main guns.

His thought was that they were just like super hunter killers and the "ordinance" part was only for the blast size.

Apoc book doesn't say fliers have any special rules as far as shooting ordinance weapons so what do you all think?

Also can you do a Bombing run and shoot in the same turn.?

First of all, I see no reason that you couldn't shoot while executing a bombing run, it simply tells you to place the bombing template at the start of the shooting phase, but places no other restrictions for that phase.

I'm not so sure on the other rules, it seems however that if a bomb is marked as ordnance then yes you would be able to fire only a single bomb and no other weapons in that turn.

However, since you are probably in a friendly game if their are aircraft involved I personally would let multiple bombs be dropped at once since both imperial aircraft in the apocalypse book specifically allow any number to be dropped in a single bombing run.

This is actually covered in the IA Apoc FAQ:


2. The Hellstrike missiles is listed as ordnance. Does this mean that they may now only fire that one missile at the cost of all its other weapons?

As an ordnance weapon a Hellstrike is fired instead of other weapons. It may fire as many missiles as you like though.



And BTW, just because they are ordnance weapons does NOT mean they use a blast marker. The profile actually has to say 'large blast' on it to use the large blast.

The bombs aren't ordinance it's the Hellstrikes that are, was just trying to squeeze two similar question into one post.

So for the Hellstrikes then he will have to role to hit but get the 2x d6 take the highest for armor pen?

aleis wrote:The bombs aren't ordinance it's the Hellstrikes that are, was just trying to squeeze two similar question into one post.

So for the Hellstrikes then he will have to role to hit but get the 2x d6 take the highest for armor pen?

I didn't even talk about bombs in my reply to you. Everything I wrote before was in relation to Hellstrikes. Yes, they'd have to roll to hit but would get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for vehicle penetration.

yakface wrote:

aleis wrote:The bombs aren't ordinance it's the Hellstrikes that are, was just trying to squeeze two similar question into one post.

So for the Hellstrikes then he will have to role to hit but get the 2x d6 take the highest for armor pen?

I didn't even talk about bombs in my reply to you. Everything I wrote before was in relation to Hellstrikes.

(I think he was responding to Drunkspleen.)

Janthkin wrote:
I didn't even talk about bombs in my reply to you. Everything I wrote before was in relation to Hellstrikes.

(I think he was responding to Drunkspleen.)

yakface wrote:Whoops! Okay.

What is annoying is that the Hellstrike missile on the Thunderhawk in the Apocalypse book has a different profile. It has an unlimited range, and is just a heavy weapon. Its strange to have weapons with the same name with different profiles. I think I should email Warwick about this. . .

See also "Volcano Cannon." I'm not sure how many versions there are now, but the Reaver & Warlord mount different ones, and I *think* the new superheavy tank has a third.

(The Volcano cannon sorta makes sense, in that the power of the thing ought to increase as the size of the associated platform increases. But the Hellstrike missile should be a self-contained consistent object.)

yakface wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
I didn't even talk about bombs in my reply to you. Everything I wrote before was in relation to Hellstrikes.

(I think he was responding to Drunkspleen.)Whoops! Okay.


What is annoying is that the Hellstrike missile on the Thunderhawk in the Apocalypse book has a different profile. It has an unlimited range, and is just a heavy weapon. Its strange to have weapons with the same name with different profiles. I think I should email Warwick about this. . .

A clear case of SM envy.

G

yakface wrote:This is actually covered in the IA Apoc FAQ:


2. The Hellstrike missiles is listed as ordnance. Does this mean that they may now only fire that one missile at the cost of all its other weapons?

As an ordnance weapon a Hellstrike is fired instead of other weapons. It may fire as many missiles as you like though.



And BTW, just because they are ordnance weapons does NOT mean they use a blast marker. The profile actually has to say 'large blast' on it to use the large blast.

Hmm.. the recent SM codex FAQ seems to disagree.
"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."
CODEX: SPACE MARINES FAQ
©

SeattleDV8 wrote:

yakface wrote:This is actually covered in the IA Apoc FAQ:


2. The Hellstrike missiles is listed as ordnance. Does this mean that they may now only fire that one missile at the cost of all its other weapons?

As an ordnance weapon a Hellstrike is fired instead of other weapons. It may fire as many missiles as you like though.



And BTW, just because they are ordnance weapons does NOT mean they use a blast marker. The profile actually has to say 'large blast' on it to use the large blast.

Hmm.. the recent SM codex FAQ seems to disagree.
"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."
CODEX: SPACE MARINES FAQ
©

The Hellstrike is Ordnance, but it is not Ordance Barrage (so no assumption of "Large Blast" available). Also, Apocalypse datasheets are generally fairly specific, given the 3", 5", 7", and 10" circular templates.

The Hellstrike is more like a Vanquisher round (ordnance, but not blast) than a Whirlwind shot (ordnance barrage).

SeattleDV8 wrote:
Hmm.. the recent SM codex FAQ seems to disagree.
"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."
CODEX: SPACE MARINES FAQ
©

The key difference is that Hellstrike missiles are not barrage weapons and therefore are not automatically blast weapons.


At first when I read page 58 of the rulebook under the Ordnance weapon section:

Unless their profile specifies otherwise, all ordnance blast weapons use the large blast marker."


I thought this meant that Hellstrikes definitely *did* use the big blast, but then I noticed the rule referenced "blast" weapons, which Hellstrike missiles are not classified as.


So because Hellstrikes are not classified as either barrage or blast weapons they do not automatically function as the 5" blast. Although I put an email into Warwick (the writer of IA) just to be sure!

Hellstrike missiles are basically hunter killer missiles that come for free on thunder hawks. Is nothing special.

G

Janthkin wrote:

SeattleDV8 wrote:

yakface wrote:This is actually covered in the IA Apoc FAQ:


2. The Hellstrike missiles is listed as ordnance. Does this mean that they may now only fire that one missile at the cost of all its other weapons?

As an ordnance weapon a Hellstrike is fired instead of other weapons. It may fire as many missiles as you like though.



And BTW, just because they are ordnance weapons does NOT mean they use a blast marker. The profile actually has to say 'large blast' on it to use the large blast.

Hmm.. the recent SM codex FAQ seems to disagree.
"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."
CODEX: SPACE MARINES FAQ
©

The Hellstrike is Ordnance, but it is not Ordance Barrage (so no assumption of "Large Blast" available). Also, Apocalypse datasheets are generally fairly specific, given the 3", 5", 7", and 10" circular templates.

The Hellstrike is more like a Vanquisher round (ordnance, but not blast) than a Whirlwind shot (ordnance barrage).

Read it again , "all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified"
Since the Hellstrike doesn't have Blast in it's description I agree it is not affected by this ruling.
The default for a ordnance weapon, barrage or not, is the 5" blast.

SeattleDV8 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

SeattleDV8 wrote:

yakface wrote:This is actually covered in the IA Apoc FAQ:


2. The Hellstrike missiles is listed as ordnance. Does this mean that they may now only fire that one missile at the cost of all its other weapons?

As an ordnance weapon a Hellstrike is fired instead of other weapons. It may fire as many missiles as you like though.



And BTW, just because they are ordnance weapons does NOT mean they use a blast marker. The profile actually has to say 'large blast' on it to use the large blast.

Hmm.. the recent SM codex FAQ seems to disagree.
"Q. What size blast marker do the Whirlwind
launcher and Orbital bombardment use?
A. They both use the large (5") blast marker. This
is because all Barrage weapons are also Blast
weapons, and all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified."
CODEX: SPACE MARINES FAQ
©

The Hellstrike is Ordnance, but it is not Ordance Barrage (so no assumption of "Large Blast" available). Also, Apocalypse datasheets are generally fairly specific, given the 3", 5", 7", and 10" circular templates.

The Hellstrike is more like a Vanquisher round (ordnance, but not blast) than a Whirlwind shot (ordnance barrage).

Read it again , "all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified"
Since the Hellstrike doesn't have Blast in it's description I agree it is not affected by this ruling.
The default for a ordnance weapon, barrage or not, is the 5" blast.

(Gogo nested quotes!)

What's to reread?

The problem was that the whirlwind doesn't specify "ordnance, barrage, large blast" - it just says "ordnance, barrage." The FAQ then specifies the following:
1) All Barrage are also Blast; and
2) All Ordnance Blast are Large Blast.
Therefore, a Whirlwind uses the 5" blast marker.

Hellstrikes are not specifed as "Blast," nor as "Barrage." As such, the FAQ is irrelevant for this purpose.

I also noted that Apocalypse, from whence the Hellstrike comes, tends to be more specific. There are many flavors of Ordnance Blast availabe in Apoc (5", 7", and 10" varieties), so they tend to be more specific on datasheets.

SeattleDV8 wrote:
Read it again , "all Ordnance Blast weapons use
the large blast marker unless otherwise specified"
Since the Hellstrike doesn't have Blast in it's description I agree it is not affected by this ruling.
The default for a ordnance weapon, barrage or not, is the 5" blast.

As I mentioned in my last post (which you seemed to ignore), a Hellstrike missile is not an ordnance *blast* weapon, just an ordnance weapon. All ordnance *blast* weapons are assumed to use the large blast marker, but not every ordnance weapon is automatically a "blast" weapon.

LOL I could be accused of ingoring your post except for the line.
"Since the Hellstrike doesn't have Blast in it's description I agree it is not affected by this ruling. "

Sounds like we will see some t hawks in chi town this year for sure. I would like an official ruling for hellstrike missiles. I an very interested to hear/see what Warwick has to say.

G

I guess Hellstrikes are a poor choice for flyers, in comparison to Hunter-Killers, because all you're getting out of the deal is throwing those 2 dice for AP. For a Vulture or Valkyrie, you can get 6 HKs or two Hellstrikes in the wing hardpoints, and I can see no reason to take the latter

It's reasonable to ignore the Thunderhawk's datasheet for the purposes of this discussion. I guess Space Marines just use different grade of missile, like they use a different grade of Storm Shield

Hellstrike missiles are taken for free in exchange for the bomb pylons. Bombs use the Apoc barrage (6) template. I thinks it's clear after reading the IA rules that hellstrike missiles count as rockets and don't use a template.

G