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Hi all!

This list is meant to be competitive vs. all-comers in privately arranged tournaments with mission/deployment as per the Rulebook, and no comp. or other scores.
Will generally seek to go second and start in reserves, coming in on 2+ on round 2 (although this will depend on amouth of cover available to the skimmers and amount of long ranged antitank in opponents army).
Most often the Autarchs will go one in each Dragon squad, working as an add. meltagun. When disembarking to shoot they might *sometimes* disengage from the dragon squad to shoot at a different tank than the squad.

I have some knowledge/ideas as to what my friends/opponents might bring. I expect to face a lot of armour: Mech marine, Landraider spam CSM, possibly battewagon spam Orks, rather mechanised IG (3 russes, 2-3 hellhounds, 2-3 chimeras), but also Nidzilla, Horde Orks, Drop Pod Marines, and maybe Elfzilla....

My target priority is generally as follows:
A) Opponent's mobility (primarily fast/mobile HIGH str CC units, but also mobility in general)
B) Opponent's long ranged antitank
C) Scoring units

What do you think? See need for tweaks to the list? General considerations about the reserve idea...? Pitfalls? Tactics, countertactics? Is it viable without a countercharge unit? (my first list without either serpent mounted Council or Jetseers)

HQ
Autarch w/ Fusion Gun
Autarch w/ Fusion Gun

TROOPS
10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers, Warlock w/ Destructor, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance

ELITE
6 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Shuriken Cannon
7 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Shuriken Cannon

HEAVY
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism


Edit: oops, forgot some points, so added 3 fire dragons to the list

Well, you shouldn't have much trouble with the enemy tanks. Comming in from out of reserves should give you the jump on them that you need and the large amount of anti tank power you have here should do a number on them. The down side is that once you get them out of their tanks, you are going to have some issues killing them. In general, I think you are going to want to keep your troops in their tanks as much as possible and just use your mobility (or concentrated fire power) to keep the enemy away from objectives and to grab one for yourself.

As for general things to keep in mind and/or use here are a few.
1) If you hold one objective and contest the rest, you win.
2) A combined shot from 2 prisms is about 10% more likely to destroy a tank than 2 seperate shots, so combine whenever practicle.
3) Shoot your bright lances before you fire your prism cannons. If the bright lances pop a tank, you may want to fire an AP2 blast into the tightly packed troops that spill out of the transport.
4) Tank shock is your friend. With as many skimmers as you have, you can do some serious last turn shinangans with tank shock. If the enemy only has infantry on an objective, tank shock the objective. If the unit doesn't break, tank shock it again with another tank. Repeate the process until either the unit breaks or you've pushed them far enough away from the objective that they no longer contest it (3" for most missions). Wave serpents (and fire prisms) take up a lot of space, so no more than 3 should be necessary for this tactic...per objective.
5) If it loses its main gun, fire prisms can still tank shock and contest objectives...keep that in mind.

how about a outflanking a unit of striking scorpions in a WS, its fun and fits with your theme.

No Holo-fields on the Prisms? I'd drop the 'Tarches, get a Seer with Doom, and drop as many FDs as you need to to get holo-fields.

Otherwise, not bad.

Burning Star IV wrote:No Holo-fields on the Prisms? I'd drop the 'Tarches, get a Seer with Doom, and drop as many FDs as you need to to get holo-fields.

Otherwise, not bad.

As to holofields, there is a valid argument that it is an over-priced upgrade on a 115 pt tank. Cheaper to let the tank die, and spend the points towards another tank. In a skimmer-heavy list, it's a fairly convincing argument.

Dropping the autarchs negates the whole theme behind the list, in that 2 Autarchs lets everytihng enter from reserve on turn 2 on a 2+. This denies the opponent at least one (and often 2) turns in which to fire on the Eldar, while still being reasonably sure of not arriving from Reserves piecemeal.

Janthkin wrote:

Burning Star IV wrote:No Holo-fields on the Prisms? I'd drop the 'Tarches, get a Seer with Doom, and drop as many FDs as you need to to get holo-fields.

Otherwise, not bad.

As to holofields, there is a valid argument that it is an over-priced upgrade on a 115 pt tank. Cheaper to let the tank die, and spend the points towards another tank. In a skimmer-heavy list, it's a fairly convincing argument.

Dropping the autarchs negates the whole theme behind the list, in that 2 Autarchs lets everytihng enter from reserve on turn 2 on a 2+. This denies the opponent at least one (and often 2) turns in which to fire on the Eldar, while still being reasonably sure of not arriving from Reserves piecemeal.

If that's the theme, then I guess. I didn't stop to look at it that way.
I stand by my Holo-Fields though...

Change a few bright lances (is say two-three) to scatter/shurikens & use the points to invest in some holofields.

Thanx for your replies all

Good sound tactics suggestions, Phoenix, Thx

As for the Holo-fields, i havent used any yet in 5th ed, and i havent missed them one bit. 3 Holo fields (105pts) cost nearly the same as a fourth prism (115) ....

The only place i would probably want to put holofields would be on transport falcons with h-fields and spirit stones...to protect the squad inside and even then i might skip them.

Dont misunderstand me though, it is NOT that holo-fields arent awesome, i just feel that naked prisms are EXTREMELY awesome and cost-effective. A real steal actually...!

But i guess in the end the convincing argument - for me - is that in all my 5th ed. battles i havent yet had real problems concerning getting my prisms shot down. I dont think i have had a single battle where more than one prism was SHOT down (i have had battles where almost every skimmer was torn to the ground by massive amount of nob power klaw attacks.... but no amount of holofields would help there)
In fact you will be surprised how often my prisms are hardly shot at at all, cause most enemy AT shooting goes towards bringing down my fire dragons (cause everyone, with reason!, hates their guts) and my troops (cause they will be hard to stop if not brought down). There simply are so many skimmers to shoot at, that often people cant afford to shoot at the fire prisms if there are, say two-three troops choices heading towards an objective or an important squad... or in generel multiple dragon squads flying towards their tanks...

With the new damage table - Holo fields are damn nice. Them and a S Stone makes your tanks near unbreakable.

While I am a fan of the holo field, it doesn't really have a place in your army. They are simply too expensive and you don't have any place to really drop the points necessary to get them.

Yeah I agree with you Phoenix, thats it in a nutshell.

Well, my experience tells me that you need not more than 3 troop units if protected by Serpents. I'd replace one DA squad by a squadron of Vypers. They will usually be targeted last by the enemy.
Moreover, one Autarch should suffice. In competitive games, I'd take a Farseer with doom and runes of warding.

EML vypers, or what are you thinking?
EML+Shuriken cannon seems like a good option.

How would you use the vypers?
In 4th ed. i used to most often use 3 (sometimes 6) double-shuri cannon vypers... to good effect... especially for popping rear armour or Av10-11.

But i havent used vypers in regular 5th ed. battles, i think they will get shot down way too easily without SMF rule. And because they can no longer be used as late game objective-claimers i also in 5th have preferred to exchange them with troop jetbikes.

But maybe im wrong?

Vypers are good in a mech army. The enemy generally has more important targets to shoot so that the Vypers will last quite long.
I'd use the Vypers aggressively. In 4th ed, my Vypers got shuricannon + scatterlaser. But now the EML is too good to ignore as it hits automatically (blast mode).

OK i tried your suggestion... exchanging one Autarch for Doomseer w/ Runes of Warding. Dropping one Avenger squad for 3 vypers (each with EML+Shuriken Cannon), i then reduced both fire dragon squads to 5 members...that gives me 73pts to play with.

If i give both avenger squads 2xshuricat bladestorm exarchs.....i got 9 pts left.

Any other ways better to spend the excess points than on bladestorm exarchs??

Here is that revised list:

HQ
Farseer w/ Doom, Runes of Warding
Autarch w/ Fusion Gun

TROOPS
10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers, Warlock w/ Destructor, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Bladestorm, 2xshuricats, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Bladestorm, 2xshuricats, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Bright Lance

ELITE
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Shuriken Cannon
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ Stones, TL Shuriken Cannon

FAST
3 Vypers w/ EML, Shuriken Cannon (1 squad)

HEAVY
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

Total: 1991 pts
---
What do people think? Is the first or the second list better? And how to spend the last 9 pts?
One thing i DONT like about the seond list, is that i will only get in from reserves on 3+ in turn 2, which is ALOT more risky than 2+.....! This can make the reserve idea somewhat less viable... (ideally i would prefer doomseer PLUS two autarchs LOL

Well, the 2nd list is more versatile. Vypers are good vs horde armies but also can decimate bunched-up Marines.
I'd give the Farseer a shining spear.
Give the Autarch a Banshee mask as a point filler.

Yeah for the 9 pts i could get 2 singing spears - both for the warlock and the farseer, and also the banshee mask

But... the autarch hasnt even got a power weapon....

LordofMuck wrote:
But... the autarch hasnt even got a power weapon....

But the power weapon has strength 3 and he will hardly do some damage vs MEQ units.

Both lists look viable, it just depends on how important you find that +1 to reserve rolls to be. If you are looking to spend those 9 points, there isn't a lot of place for them...maybe singing spears.

That is actually a really cool list and in 5th overcomes the problem of hving to crowd your deployment zone with a million skimmers standing still.

I think you could have a lot of fun with that list and do very well.

Phoenix wrote:If you are looking to spend those 9 points, there isn't a lot of place for them...maybe singing spears.

You could also fit in one more Storm Guardian

Those vipers firing the shuriken cannons & plasma EML missiles (as a defensive weapon) look to put out a respectable amount of firepower!

Phoenix wrote:If you are looking to spend those 9 points, there isn't a lot of place for them...maybe singing spears.

Scorpion Chainsword = 5pts

Bumps the 'Tarch to S4... I wouldn't bother though, he shouldn't be in CC if he's supporting the FD squads, but if they're charged it gives him a bit more tooth than he'd normally have.

I might try to make points to add Exarchs in the Fire Dragon squads, with DBFs and Crack Shot. Possibly more worth it than the bladestorms.

In my opinion, Kill Points spelled the end of Vypers for a long time, I would reconsider them. The army is a lot of kill points without them.

Also if you can fit fortune in, do it. Its always worth the points.

Thanks for your replies
After new input and more consideration im pondering this build instead:

What do you think of it?


HQ
Autarch w/ Fusion Gun, Scorpion Chainsword (or Doomseer w/ spear and one less fire dragon)
Autarch w/ Fusion Gun, Scorpion Chainsword

TROOPS
10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers, Warlock w/ Heavy Flamer, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Bladestorm, 2xshuricats, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Bladestorm, 2xshuricats, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon

ELITE
6 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon

FAST
8 Warp Spiders, Exarch w/ Dual-Deathspinners

HEAVY
Fire Prism
Fire Prism
3 War Walkers w/ Shuriken Cannons

Total: 2000 pts

Edit: PS: I think i will try this army in two different configs. One like above and one with one autarch+one fire dragon changed into a doomseer w/ spear.

I know its a bit different from the other... but now it certainly packs a lot of str6 shots

Your not making great use of any-kind of reserves deployment.

Besides from the lone group of spyders. For the points of this army.. up that team to atleast a 9man team. Just think of the pure numbers in reguards to morale checks!

@ Razerous: What do you mean, that im not making use of reserves deployment?
I mean the plan is for the entire army to deploy in reserves (with spiders having to choice of deep striking and walkers the choice of outflanking, both depending on circumstances).

So how do you feel i could/should make more use of reserves deployment?