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I'm trying to figure out just why the Hive Tyrant can get cover saves from gaunts in front of him if he has a bodyguard.

The FAQ states to treat the Tyrant as an upgrade character while he has his guard.

The rules state to treat Independent Characters as upgrade characters as long as they have a retinue.

The rules state if an independent character that is also a Monstrous Creature joins a unit of non-Monstrous Creatures he can be targetted independently of the rest of his unit.

So I guess I am wondering why the Tyrant is treated differently than a Monstous Creature that is an independent character?

BTW, I don't own the Tyranid Codex, so is it something in there that says he is treated differently?

C.H.A.D. wrote:BTW, I don't own the Tyranid Codex, so is it something in there that says he is treated differently?

The codex entry for Tyrant Guard says so. So does the FAQ.

Tyranid FAQ wrote:Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character?

A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only
exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant
Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues
(except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade
character with this unit) until the Guards are all
destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts
to the normal rules for monstrous creatures.

C.H.A.D. wrote:I'm trying to figure out just why the Hive Tyrant can get cover saves from gaunts in front of him if he has a bodyguard.

The FAQ states to treat the Tyrant as an upgrade character while he has his guard.

The rules state to treat Independent Characters as upgrade characters as long as they have a retinue.

The rules state if an independent character that is also a Monstrous Creature joins a unit of non-Monstrous Creatures he can be targetted independently of the rest of his unit.

So I guess I am wondering why the Tyrant is treated differently than a Monstous Creature that is an independent character?

BTW, I don't own the Tyranid Codex, so is it something in there that says he is treated differently?

Just because a Tyrant is an upgrade character while with his guard and an IC is an upgrade character while with their retinue does not sufficiently justify calling the Tyrant an IC, so your third point about ICs that are monstrous creatures does not apply to the Hive Tyrant at all.

Even if he did have the IC special rule I'm not sure that it would apply because while he is with the retinue he isn't an IC, I tend to think that the rules you are citing apply exclusively to ICs joining generic units and not being attached to retinues. Especially since if we were to read it as applying to ICs that are in retinues then the protection during an assault that the retinue affords and is widely accepted as affording would cease to exist.

Drunkspleen wrote:
Even if he did have the IC special rule I'm not sure that it would apply because while he is with the retinue he isn't an IC, I tend to think that the rules you are citing apply exclusively to ICs joining generic units and not being attached to retinues. Especially since if we were to read it as applying to ICs that aren't in retinues then the protection during an assault that the retinue affords and is widely accepted as affording would cease to exist.

Awesome. Thanks. This makes sense.

The Hive Tyrant still only gets cover from being 50% obscured, whether or not it has a retinue. But the models in the retinue still get all of the regular cover save rules, including the cover save from a screening unit.

So, how it works is that the models in the retinue qualify for cover, those models make up the majority of the unit, and if the majority of the unit is eligible for a cover save, that cover save is granted to the entire unit. That's how a Hive Tyrant gets a cover save from a guant unit, the business about counting as an upgrade character has nothing to do with it.

For the record, a Hive Tyrant with a retinue isn't an independent character, even though it has a retinue. I don't believe that there is anything in 40k which is both an independent character and a monstrous creature. Where is this rule which you claim allows targetting Monstrous Creature's attached to units? It sounds like a WHFB rule, but I'm having trouble finding it in that rulebook, either.

For the record, a Hive Tyrant with a retinue isn't an independent character, even though it has a retinue. I don't believe that there is anything in 40k which is both an independent character and a monstrous creature. Where is this rule which you claim allows targetting Monstrous Creature's attached to units? It sounds like a WHFB rule, but I'm having trouble finding it in that rulebook, either.

I believe a C'tan is still a MC and an IC. The rule is on pg. 49, second paragraph.

Janthkin wrote:

For the record, a Hive Tyrant with a retinue isn't an independent character, even though it has a retinue. I don't believe that there is anything in 40k which is both an independent character and a monstrous creature. Where is this rule which you claim allows targetting Monstrous Creature's attached to units? It sounds like a WHFB rule, but I'm having trouble finding it in that rulebook, either.

I believe a C'tan is still a MC and an IC. The rule is on pg. 49, second paragraph.

I had to dig out my Necron codex to double check, and you're right, the C'tan are monstrous characters. The odd thing is that the C'tan have a special rule preventing them from joining friendly units and allowing them to be fired upon, even without the rule on page 49. Oh well, I guess we just have to assume that GW is trying to anticipate future codices, or something.