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I'm coming up on game two in my escalation league and I'm playing Chaos. There are a good number of horde armies and CC armies so I need some fire power on the board.

I was thinking of running my 135 point havoc squad. Which is 5 Havocs with 4x heavy bolters. But it got me to thinking as I finished painting my first 5 Noise Marines with sonic weapons. Are Noise Marines with Sonic Weapons better at putting out firepower than 5 havocs with 4 heavy bolters?

Thinking in terms of firepower the havocs get 12 shots BS 4, S 5 at 36". But they must remain stationary, and they may or may not have a bolter shot from the guy without a Heavy Bolter at BS 4, S 4 24" or two of those shots at 12". But if something is 12 inches away from your Havocs you might be doing it wrong or about to lose your havocs to assault. Looking at the Noise Marines with sonic weapons now, they get 10 shots at BS 4, S 4 at 24" while moving. So effectively 30" with those shots. Or they can stand still, probably in cover or a ruin, and shoot 15 shots at BS 45, S 4 at 24". So while they move into position to use their Heavy shots they can lay down shots, or if they have to move away or move toward to assault they can continue shooting.

Which leads me to another point, Havocs can't stand up in assault while Noise Marines can. Nosie Marines will usually be going first in most assaults, given a space marine average of stats, with I 5. Havocs lose the use of their Heavy Bolters if they have to move up to assault something or have to move away to keep from being assaulted. Noise Marines seem to win hands down here.

Another point, Noise Marines are troops and fearless ones at that. Unlike the Havocs they can't be pinned and can't be ran off the board from bad rolls after being shot at.

My final point is that the Havocs squad is 135 points while the Noise Marine squad is 125 points.

So Dakka, given the above, which would you prefer a squad of 5 havocs with 4 heavy bolters or a squad of 5 Noise Marines with 5 sonic weapons.

... you're going up against hord ... of the two i would go for the havocks for the greater range (greater strenthed H.bolters). They might run away but if you're taking enough shooting to cause a large negative modifer then you'll have lost the unit any way. Also 24" isn't that far away some people can assault that distance and then your toast.

if you want anit infantary try including some havoc launchers on to your vehicals, makes a rhino a nice little gun platform for a total of 50pts.

Noise marines can hold objectives.

For that simple fact I'd go with them.

Tri wrote:... you're going up against hord ... of the two i would go for the havocks for the greater range (greater strenthed H.bolters). They might run away but if you're taking enough shooting to cause a large negative modifer then you'll have lost the unit any way. Also 24" isn't that far away some people can assault that distance and then your toast.

if you want anit infantary try including some havoc launchers on to your vehicals, makes a rhino a nice little gun platform for a total of 50pts.

But what's 12 more inches? I really don't know that many units that can assault 24". And Noise Marines can counter assault and still lay down their shots. I don't really need to fret about them anyway, I have Lashes this time around (Didn't in my first league match).

My rhinos are all kitted out with Havocs.

I can't believe this hasn't occurred to anyone else before, how much better Noise Marines are then a squad of havocs.

we're talking about hord army so you'll be seeing
Ork - any thing on the back of a truck can move 13" waarg 1-6" Assualt 6"; that a total 20-25" ... i'd be amazed if you manage to shoot from exactly 24" so there is a good chance of getting assualted.
- Storm boys move 12"+D6" + 6" Assault
Tryanids - any thing with leaping bio-morph can assualt 12" ... many have wings for movement of 12" (just a shame it can't be combined)
-hormagaunts move 6" fleet d6" assualt12"
IG, Tau, Eldar: not hord as such but they have range so will be shooting at you before you get a shot off.

Still you're call, your army ... personal from the troop i think the best options are plague marines and Berzerkers

Tri wrote:we're talking about hord army so you'll be seeing
Ork - any thing on the back of a truck can move 13" waarg 1-6" Assualt 6"; that a total 20-25" ... i'd be amazed if you manage to shoot from exactly 24" so there is a good chance of getting assualted.
- Storm boys move 12"+D6" + 6" Assault
Tryanids - any thing with leaping bio-morph can assualt 12" ... many have wings for movement of 12" (just a shame it can't be combined)
-hormagaunts move 6" fleet d6" assualt12"
IG, Tau, Eldar: not hord as such but they have range so will be shooting at you before you get a shot off.

Still you're call, your army ... personal from the troop i think the best options are plague marines and Berzerkers

I doubt I'd ever actually have the havocs a full 36" out either though. The nids army I faced in league so far was a shooty one. A little weird. But it was a good list. I'm not really worried about the assault because I'm running Plague Marines (2 Squads) and Zerkers already.

Fair enough...Good luck in the league!

Mekboy wrote:Noise marines can hold objectives.

For that simple fact I'd go with them.

And are fearless.

whitedragon wrote:

Mekboy wrote:Noise marines can hold objectives.

For that simple fact I'd go with them.

And are fearless.

And can move and fire. And don't take up Heavy slots.

- Blackbone

Based on my experience, I think you'll be disappointed with the firepower effectiveness of sonic blaster NMs versus the firepower of HB havocs.

On paper maybe they don't look that different. But not all 12" range bands are created equal, and the band between 24" and 36" is one of the key ones. 90% of the guns on the table in any given battle typically have a range of 24" or less. So any time you have something that closes to within 24", you're much more vulnerable to return fire than something that stands off at 25"+ Conversely, if your have guns can reach out to 36", you can hit things that are trying to stand off from you. Against horde assaults, the extra 12" gives you at least one additional volley of shots.

Also Str5 is a magic number in terms of the distribution of weapons, toughness and vehicle armor on the table. Because most weapons in the game are str4 or less and because T4 is so common, the jump from str4 to str5 is more important than the jump from 3 to 4 or from 6 to 7. Because of the commoness of AR11 vehicles (which are immune to str4 guns) the 4-5 jump in weapon strength is an important break point.

Yes, noise marines are scoring and fearless and so they're better for holding positions and not dying or running off. But they can't match the firepower of HB havocs across the course of a game.

Let me preface with my preference: Noise marines.

What you have to be certain to compare, however, is the S of the weapon. You get a lot of benefits with the Noise Marines, but you give up the HEAVY weapons... S4 vs. s5 is a big deal. It doubles your chance at taking out A10 vehicles and has the ONLY chance (out of the 2) of taking out A11. I can't tell you how many times I've taken out an important Rhino with a Heavy Bolter shot... That can't happen (from the front) with a S4 weapon.

Keep that in mind when choosing.

For the move/shoot potential, Assault potential, fearless & scoring aspects, however, I prefer Noisies.

Eric

Given a perfect situation, the havocs will kill more things because they have more firepower. The noise marines are better at everything else.

So what you have to ask yourself is, do i need more firepower at the expense of fearless scoring units? If you already have more than enough scoring things but are having trouble putting down enemy infantry then get the havocs. Otherwise take the noise marines.

Yeah, I'm with Eric here. No argument that Havocs are more fragile, but have significantly more firepower.

Also with the increased prevalence of cover, I personally find that my sonic blasters are overcosted for what they do. My favorite 5th edition Noise Marine loadout is now just the default bolter-bp-ccw (and a champ with a doom siren in a rhino).

If you already have plague marines, you might consider if the havocs are a better fit to increase the flexibility of your army. Particularly if you're fighting a lot of Tau--HBs outrange pulse rifles and they kill fire warriors dead in a way that sonic blasters can't. Especially if you lash the fire warriors out of cover first...

Havocs with autocannons imo.

I wishI could get Devs with autocannons. Of course, we have assault cannons, so we have no right to complain.

Arbalest wrote:Havocs with autocannons imo.

No codex in front of me. Can they still take Autocannons?

I honestly prefer Havocs with MLs, just because I like the versatility.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Yeah, I'm with Eric here. No argument that Havocs are more fragile, but have significantly more firepower.

Also with the increased prevalence of cover, I personally find that my sonic blasters are overcosted for what they do. My favorite 5th edition Noise Marine loadout is now just the default bolter-bp-ccw (and a champ with a doom siren in a rhino).

If you already have plague marines, you might consider if the havocs are a better fit to increase the flexibility of your army. Particularly if you're fighting a lot of Tau--HBs outrange pulse rifles and they kill fire warriors dead in a way that sonic blasters can't. Especially if you lash the fire warriors out of cover first...

I semi disagree. I think the S_Blasters are NICELY pointed... it's the Emp's Kids that are so dang expensive.
The Blastmaster... now THERE's a shame. GREAT gun... Terribly high points.

Eric

Flavius Infernus wrote:Based on my experience, I think you'll be disappointed with the firepower effectiveness of sonic blaster NMs versus the firepower of HB havocs.

On paper maybe they don't look that different. But not all 12" range bands are created equal, and the band between 24" and 36" is one of the key ones. 90% of the guns on the table in any given battle typically have a range of 24" or less. So any time you have something that closes to within 24", you're much more vulnerable to return fire than something that stands off at 25"+ Conversely, if your have guns can reach out to 36", you can hit things that are trying to stand off from you. Against horde assaults, the extra 12" gives you at least one additional volley of shots.

Also Str5 is a magic number in terms of the distribution of weapons, toughness and vehicle armor on the table. Because most weapons in the game are str4 or less and because T4 is so common, the jump from str4 to str5 is more important than the jump from 3 to 4 or from 6 to 7. Because of the commoness of AR11 vehicles (which are immune to str4 guns) the 4-5 jump in weapon strength is an important break point.

Yes, noise marines are scoring and fearless and so they're better for holding positions and not dying or running off. But they can't match the firepower of HB havocs across the course of a game.

You have a very good point there sir. The gap between 4 and 5 is huge. It's probably the only thing that really keeps the Havocs a viable choice against the Noise Marines.

Well, my NM army usually contained an NM squad with sonic blasters.
However, I found that their range is simply too short. I left this squad usually sitting at an objective. If the objective was too far way from the enemy, the NM couldn't shoot. If the objective was closer to the enemy the enemy tried to charge them. But options turned out to be bad.
Now I switched to small units with blastmaster. These weapons are expensive but awesome, as they hit automatically, have a long range, and are high strength.

wuestenfux wrote: These weapons are expensive but awesome, as they hit automatically, have a long range, and are high strength.

Auto-hit with a scatter roll, Right? With the single frequency.

Yes, auto hit. with scatter roll.
My experience with the blast of the missile launcher was really good so that I switched my shooty NM squads to field blastmasters.

Tri wrote:we're talking about hord army so you'll be seeing
Ork - any thing on the back of a truck can move 13" waarg 1-6" Assualt 6"; that a total 20-25" ... i'd be amazed if you manage to shoot from exactly 24" so there is a good chance of getting assualted.

Waagh on average is 3-4", so if you're only 18" away from the truck, you're statistically likely to get your shots off without a truck squad assaulting you if you're decent at positioning.

You're only pointing out math for speed freaks type hordes.

Does his whole army have jetpacks and transports? Are none of his transports shot down and broken?

Ork trucks are only Armor 10 and open-topped so they can be destroyed even by regular S4 bolters or sonic blasters.

Of course, obliterators and such should be taking out the transports before they get near your troops, preferably.

Sonic Blasters shouldn't be ignored for tactical use.

24" Assault 2 or 24" Heavy 3 is amazing. At long range, Noise marines w/ sonics are three times as damaging as normal chaos or loyalist marines w/ bolters. And if they move, loyalists and chaos at 13-24" range have a total zero shots. Sonics get 2 shots each at such while moving.

This means if an enemy unit stops like 28" away from you, normally immune to all bolter fire. You can march up a few inches and lay into it with 2 shots per guy. Then, as that unit starts to move to you, you can back up 6" each turn while firing 2 shots per guy.

The majority of troops can't run and assault in the same turn, so you could get 2+ turns of shooting before they get any retaliation at all.

Not to mention, another difference between Noise marines and a havoc squad is, Noise Marines are not bad in combat.

If default melee squad moves 24" away, on your turn you open fire with 3 shots per guy, a few of his guys die. On his turn he moves up and runs towards you. If he's within 12", you can run 6" forwards, shoot 2 shots per trooper into him, then assault him with 3 initiative-5 attacks per guy before he gets a chance to hit you.

If he's farther than 12", you can walk 6" backwards or whatever while gunning him down, there is no way he assaults you next turn unless his unit has some special rule.

In either circumstance. I don't think havocs w/ heavy bolters would be more effective.

Havocs aren't going to do any damage while running away. If you're close enough to move-and-shoot your bolters, then you're within 12" and a normal unit by default can assault something 12" away. Havocs also take more damage in melee, since they likely won't be able to shoot twice and attack three times before any I1-4 enemy gets attacks.

Havocs will have longer range on heavy bolters compared to the non-Blastmaster NMs but that likely just means you kill a few dudes before they get within 24" (where noise marine troops can shoot them)



Also, important to note, taking Havocs w/ Heavy bolters takes up slots for Obliterators/Vindicators/Defilers. (emphasis on Obliterators.)

Obliterators can fire 12" farther than those heavy bolters, and blow up transports far easier. They can also move-and-shoot unlike havocs. Can deep-strike unlike havocs. And stand a chance against even Landraiders (unlike heavy bolter havocs)

Noise Marines are troops and scoring units.

If a heavy support option isn't significantly superior to troops, the fodder squads, then I think one is the winner to me.

MagickalMemories wrote:Let me preface with my preference: Noise marines.

What you have to be certain to compare, however, is the S of the weapon. You get a lot of benefits with the Noise Marines, but you give up the HEAVY weapons... S4 vs. s5 is a big deal. It doubles your chance at taking out A10 vehicles and has the ONLY chance (out of the 2) of taking out A11. I can't tell you how many times I've taken out an important Rhino with a Heavy Bolter shot... That can't happen (from the front) with a S4 weapon.

Keep that in mind when choosing.

For the move/shoot potential, Assault potential, fearless & scoring aspects, however, I prefer Noisies.

Eric

It is true that regular noise marine troops won't pop rhinos (Except the blastmaster S8 could easily pop a rhino.) but Havocs detract from the number of vehicle-destroyers you can field.

Instead of fielding a squad of Obliterators which can blow a rhino up from 48" away, then Plasma Cannon the cargo off the board at 36" away, you're fielding S5 guns instead of S9.

Predator with Autocannon (S7 instead of S5 of H. Bolter) and two S9 Lascannons. Much cheaper than Dev. squad and also able to pop transports much easier. Armor 13 in the front means he won't be penetrated by anything S7 or less (like all those Autocannons or Assault Cannons or Lootas S7 guns)

Your heavy bolter havoc squad will get clearly outgunned if the enemy brings Oblits.

The good news is you can have 2 Lash Daemon Princes + As many Noise Marines as you want + 3 squads of Oblits or 2 squads of Oblits + a Defiler. All of which are more versatile than heavy bolters (S8-S9, AP2 or AP3)


Edit: I think for you to advocate HBs instead of NM for anti-vehicle ability, you have to look at how badly HB handles vehicles. Maybe try the comparison of a 4 Autocannon havoc squad instead. They can actually glance AV13 things like dreads, although they still can't pierce AP2. The autocannons also are far longer range than heavy bolters and pop Rhino transports easier.)