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Random thought.

Consider this..

Any unit with an Icon is a huge fire magnet.
A lot of units won't be using your Icon (Flamers, Grinders hiding from Meltaguns, etc)
Icons are expensive (most armies take 2=50pts)

Do you think they're worth the points?

The whole basis of the army is randomisation, why not embrace it and leave them at home?

Also if you take 2, you would expect to have 1 in each 'half' of the army for dpeployment.
The icon unit will be a huge target, but as other units dribble in, will you have the icon unit in the right place to get the most out of it with the other units arriving normally from reserve?

I used to be a fan of them, but am changing to leave them at home.

That's what I was thinking.

And the 50pts it frees up really makes the difference in balancing the list.

and you cant use em at the first drop.

Alot of it depends on what kind of army you are using. Khorne can get away with not bringing them, Kairos wouldn't be caught dead without an Icon buddy.

I'm a fan, If nothing else they're great for a little mis direction.

When people are confronted with targeting two units, one dangerous without an icon, and the other not as dangerous but with the icon. The enemy must split their fire, or concentrate on one, leaving the other a dangerous unit.

I find that due to the way I use my daemons with a refused flank stratergy, having them all appear in reasonably close formation is very helpfull, more so if the enemies blast templates are gone!

I would take them because they are a huge fire magnet. Place them on a large unit of plague bearers and let them soak up fire for the rest of your army.

Randomization is the army's weakness.
IMO, it's not something to embrace, it's something to overcome if you want a winning list.

I put Icons in every troop unit when building daemons lists and try to get them anywhere else I can.

Sure, you won't use 'em on turn 1... but it would be nice (and highly beneficial) to be able to CHOOSE where you put the units coming in on turn 2+.

Eric

Randomization is both the army's weakness and strength.

In lots of play, I've found that an excessive number of icons can be a weakness, but having icons is almost a necessity, especially since you'll often want to bring some units right down on top of the enemy.

I heavily disagree with the original poster that grinders and flamers are less likely to use them. On the proper platforms, they're among the most likely to use them.

Right now, at 1750-1850, I'm running 3 icons. Two on troop units (which are usually my secondary) and one on my Bloodcrushers (which are usually primary). My bloodcrushers are going down first, which means that I'm trying to get them as close to the enemy as possible. Barring abjectly bad scatter (directly away from the enemy) they're going to end up close enough that the icon means I can bring in reserves right on top of the enemy.

The secondary icons go with a near/far combo. One's on a large unit of bloodletters that is going to drop as close to the enemy as possible (if they come in first), while hopefully staying in or around cover (so they can go to ground for the 3+ save). The other icon goes on my plaguebearers, which are usually hanging around in my backfield.

Overall, I've found that combination to work very, very well.

When I play Daemons, I usually just go bold and do not take Icons. Its worked out pretty well so far.

They cost too much to potentially be of no benefit, leave the icons to those sissy Chaos Space Marines.

~ 1 Icon per 600pts setup 1/2 rounding up setup in your first drop.
Only given to troops choices.
Unless your enacting Blood Crusher wound allocation shenanigans.
Being able to late game drop a Demon Prince to support your back field plague bearer daisy pickers is priceless.

extrenm(54) wrote:When I play Daemons, I usually just go bold and do not take Icons. Its worked out pretty well so far.

Really, it depends on a couple of things. One do you need to deep strike units ridiculously close to the enemy? Any units that have breath of chaos fall into this category, as you really want them appearing as close as possible. Khornate units (except hounds/thirsters) also fall into this category, as they benefit from being able to drop as close as possible. The final unit that really benefits are soul grinders. They're so large, that having an icon can save lots of headaches.

If you're running MSU Daemons, you can probably get away with not having icons, because every single one of your units is expendable.

Linkdead wrote:They cost too much to potentially be of no benefit, leave the icons to those sissy Chaos Space Marines.

Disagree wholeheartedly. The lowest number I'll take is two, one for each wave, so I'm always guaranteed to have one on turn 2+ (if it's not killed, of course).

Belphegor wrote:~ 1 Icon per 600pts setup 1/2 rounding up setup in your first drop.
Only given to troops choices.
Unless your enacting Blood Crusher wound allocation shenanigans.
Being able to late game drop a Demon Prince to support your back field plague bearer daisy pickers is priceless.

There's a couple of other viable icon platforms besides troop choices. Heralds, either on chariots, or on mounts with an appropriate "retinue" are also good icon platforms.

I don't know if I'd go with your rule of thumb...I've found 2-3 icons does just fine, regardless of point totals (from 1000-2250)

personally, I'll bring zero under 1000, 1 under 1500 or so, and 2 above that. It often depends on my army makeup as well. If I want flamers in my 2nd wave, or if I have several particularly slow units I can't afford to scatter into uselessness, I'll bring more. If I'm running primarily shooty/speedy units, I'm less concerned with icons. '

Primarily, icons are good for quickly overrunning a particular front. When my 10 plaguebearers on turn 2 suddenly turn into 10 plaguebearers, 4 crushers, and a daemon prince, whatever resistance was sent to that flank will quickly disappear.

My icons go on plaguebearers and bloodcrushers. Crushers, because they're always at the front lines and I can abuse wound allocation this way (for shame!), and the bearers because they're always on or near an objective, and are usually the ones requiring reinforcing (or I risk them being stuck in CC forever, unable to hold their objective.)

I've actually taken to putting them in my secondary wave. Top marks to anyone who can guess why.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've actually taken to putting them in my secondary wave. Top marks to anyone who can guess why.

Enlighten me good sir. It'd seem a bad play to do so.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've actually taken to putting them in my secondary wave. Top marks to anyone who can guess why.

Because your secondary wave consists of your "disposable" units, and if it comes in first, you need to be able to guarantee supporting placement for your heavy hitters in your first wave.

If your primary hits, then your secondary comes into support or hold objectives or whatever. If your secondary hits, you can hold the objectives, but you need the primary for offensive power, so when they do come in, you want them to be mutually supporting in a fashion that not having icons wouldn't allow.



To be honest, not all that different from my current style, which has 2 in the secondary, and 1 in the primary. The primary icon is partially there to help flamers come in accurately, but also because an 8-man bloodcrusher squad should have full upgrades.

My secondary wave has plaguebearers and bloodletters with icons.

The problem with putting them (solely) in your second wave is that you don't know when they'll show up. If the unit(s) with an icon come in on the second wave it's possible they won't arrive soon enough to be of any benefit at all other than going towards making those units complex.

I have not played daemonic hordes yet but I have watched some games and read as much useful information as my free time allows. The army I am planning to field will split into two roughly identical blocks. I plan on taking one icon in each block. Icons are expensive and I see little value in going overboard with them. As has been stated they are strategic for helping to bring down units from the second wave so that they are safely placed 'on top' of the opponent's units. I want to take an icon in both of my Blood Crusher units. The Blood Crushers are resilient and the first squad to come in should last long enough to have their icon available to support units coming in on the second wave. Knowing that the second wave will come in piecemeal the presence of an icon already on the table helps you to get the most out these straggler units. The worse thing that could happen is for the straggler units to come and scatter away from enemy units... it will take that much longer for these units to reach the enemy for an assault - assuming these units are close combat oriented. If they drift away they will be shot up more and there is always the possiblity of an infortunate mishap occurring.

I would have to say yes, using an icon to bring down a soul grinder is very helpful - as Cent has pointed out already the model is huge so there is a greater chance for a mishap to occur. Soul grinders have fleet and are deadly in close combat so often you will want them to also come in as close as possible to the enemy.

Another plus when taking an icon in a squad is that it helps to make the unit more complex. This is a bonus for taking an icon and could help keep the heavy hitters around a bit longer. I think every little bit helps too for this army in general.

G

I'm of mixed opinion on the icons myself. I've had them be very usefull on occasion. Managed to have an icon real close to a 10 man squad of marines when flamers became available, and it was useful when I wanted to bring in some bloodletters up close to the action but had limited space between lots of units and heavy terrain, (and they landed near enough to Fateweaver to be able to reroll their saves, also very handy.) I've tried a couple of chariot mounted Tzeentch heralds with icons, and being able to zip them 24 inches up to bring in a squd close to an objective has occasionally been helpful.

On the other hand, it's points. I often manage to get my flamers to land close enough to the right spot. I don't need pinpoint accuracy with the horrors, and am more than willing to take advantage of run with the stuff that cant assault the round it lands anyhow. 2 icons is 3 bloodletters, 3 is almost enough to get a 5 model unit of screamers, and when I'm doing the 'skittles' type of stuff, more is better.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The problem with putting them (solely) in your second wave is that you don't know when they'll show up. If the unit(s) with an icon come in on the second wave it's possible they won't arrive soon enough to be of any benefit at all other than going towards making those units complex.

You missed the point, putting them only in the 2nd wave is a tool to mitigate that stupid favor of the gods rule. You place your heavy hitters in the first wave, if your roll is successful, then great you get to place the best half of your army first. However if you fail the icons in the 2nd wave assure you can get those heavy hitters where they need to be in the latter turns.

What I was saying is why even take icons if you plan to use them in such a manner that they don't really do anything useful.

G

I'd say icons can help make up for a lack of mobility at the very least. But that's only if you have a lack of mobility to begin with.

Green Blow Fly wrote:What I was saying is why even take icons if you plan to use them in such a manner that they don't really do anything useful.

G

Because one third of the time your plans WILL go askew. It's much less of a problem with lists that follow the "two equal portions" approach you're planning for. However, a lot of very successful lists don't do that - one portion of the list is weighted (both point-wise and in terms of model selection) towards up-close-and-personal killing, while the second wave includes ranged support and resilient scoring units. If you get Wave 2 in the first drop, a couple Icons can make a huge difference in bringing in your heavy-hitters where they now need to be on turn 2+.

To me I see two icons as optimal... one for each block. A third icon getting it's points back is questionable. Certainly the third icon is going to help some of the time but not all of the time. I leave it to you and other daemon players to decide if the difference is worth the points. People here have said just forgo the use of icons in general. I have played a lot of power armor armies that relied upon deep striking terminators to win games... the teleport homer was only five points apiece and I could take one in practically every unit. Only using an icon in your second block fundamentally goes against the concept of diminishing returns. I always go with high odds whenever possible to win games... an icon in the second block is a big gamble. 67% of the time it is of little value and the other 33% time you have a 50% chance it will come in on turn two. That is one out of six times statiscally speaking... Not worth the points to me no matter how you spin it. Daemon armies are random in genetal but you are trying to Minimize this aspect to win consistently.

Green Blow Fly wrote:To me I see two icons as optimal... one for each block. A third icon getting it's points back is questionable. Certainly the third icon is going to help some of the time but not all of the time. I leave it to you and other daemon players to decide if the difference is worth the points. People here have said just forgo the use of icons in general. I have played a lot of power armor armies that relied upon deep striking terminators to win games... the teleport homer was only five points apiece and I could take one in practically every unit. Only using an icon in your second block fundamentally goes against the concept of diminishing returns. I always go with high odds whenever possible to win games... an icon in the second block is a big gamble. 67% of the time it is of little value and the other 33% time you have a 50% chance it will come in on turn two. That is one out of six times statiscally speaking... Not worth the points to me no matter how you spin it. Daemon armies are random in genetal but you are trying to Minimize this aspect to win consistently.

The bigger question in determining the number of icons is the number of units for which an icon increases the effectiveness, versus the number of units that can live without it, so to speak. If you've got a slaanesh or Tzeentch heavy force, you probably need fewer icons, as you've either got speed (in the case of slaanesh) or range (in the case of Tzeentch). Khornate/Nurgle units need to come in closer, to guarantee that they'll be getting involved as soon as possible.

Flamers are the one tzeentch unit that can really make use of icons, if you can get the icons in position.