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A Space Marine Army includes shrike.

Shrike joins a squad.

Another marine character joins the squad.

Can the whole squad (2 characters and the squad) infiltrate together?

*SPLEDIT

This is one of the more hotly debated issues.

Shrikes ability applies to "his squad" which the other IC would be a part of.

However, due to the way Special Abilities and interacting with IC's works, without Shrikes rule saying it also applies to IC's, they cannot join and also get the benifit of Infiltrate.

Pg. 48 of the BRB under the Special Rules section.

This is my interpretation of the rule, though as I said before, it is one that it hotly debated.

Marius is right.

Shrike is the only character i allow myself to use out of the book and at first glance the rule would imply that it is any model that is part of the squad.

However the rule reads his "unit" which would imply the squad as is and not any additional IC's that join it as well as Shrike.

Of course this leads to the issue of arguing that a unit cannot benefit from it as Shrike joins the unit as part of the deployment phase as would any other IC.

But after much discussion we came up with that you simply can't as Shrikes rule again doesn't say it affects other IC's as well as himself and the unit he is with (which is a shame as 10 infiltrating Assault Marines + Chaplain + Shrike is evil, or 10 Assault Termines + Shrike + Lysander is cheese of the highest order).

Hope this helps, i was really hoping that the Marine FAQ would resolve this but sadly for us it wasn't worth the storage space on the interwebs it takes up.

My take on this is that when an IC joins a unit, it becomes part of that unit and follows single unit rules (except parts of close combat). So if you have multiple IC's join the unit, it is still a single unit.

Hello,

We take each one on a case by case basis, following the logic you used. The Apothecary and Painboy would grant his abilities to characters that joined his unit; while Snikrot and Shrike would not. There is no hard and fast, we just consider each case individually.



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If you consider John Spencer at all useful maybe you will appreciate this, apparently, they have taken the same approach as the INAT FAQ, although not as clear in the distinctions they take, but they think certain rules should carry across while others are abusive, this being one that isn't intended to.

OK,

Thanks for the details everyone.

I must have had a misconception over the years about Dakka and RAW, I am surprised to see another argument where RAW is clear but community consensus is something else.

Very well.

Drunkspleen wrote:...If you consider John Spencer at all useful maybe you will appreciate this...

I don't know John Spencer or if this seemingly reasonable post is fabrication or genuine, perhaps there is no Jon Spencer, perhaps he is a great guy. I make no judgements.

What I will say here, if there is a Mr. Spencer, and he reads this, could you please ad this issue to the frequently asked questions, push it up the ladder, and one day, possibly, put it on a Space Marine FAQ?

Perhaps on the currently blank page?

Well Dakka in my short tenure on this site does tend to lean to RAW more so then some other sites.

The thing about this issue, is both sides think (or know) they have RAW on their side.

For instance some say RAW means anyone in his unit.

However RAW also says that unless specifically said otherwise, Special Rules do not crossover from Character to unit, or unit to character. Shrikes rule in no location says it applies to other IC's, as is required by pg. 48 of the BRB.

So I would be careful of saying RAW is on ones side, as in this case it can be said its on both for above listed reasons.

RAW talks about USR's (in terms of the IC specail rules section pg.47 & the actual USR section)

This is because some of the rules could be confusing is it was a complex unit with different rules - hence the * addition/exception to certain rules.

Shrikes rule is shrikes rule.. it states what it states & it has no bearing to the USR & thier specific exceptions.

Just my thinking.

Razerous wrote:RAW talks about USR's (in terms of the IC specail rules section pg.47 & the actual USR section)

This is because some of the rules could be confusing is it was a complex unit with different rules - hence the * addition/exception to certain rules.

Shrikes rule is shrikes rule.. it states what it states & it has no bearing to the USR & thier specific exceptions.

Just my thinking.

The problem is that the RAW talks not about USRs, but simply special rules. (not capitalized). Shrike's rule comes under the heading of Special Rule (capitalized). Which leads to a massive grey area.

Augustus wrote:OK,

Thanks for the details everyone.

I must have had a misconception over the years about Dakka and RAW, I am surprised to see another argument where RAW is clear but community consensus is something else.

Very well.

First off, RAW unless Shrike is being put into Reserves with a unit (thus allowing them all to outflank) he can't join a unit until he is actually deployed with them, at which point it would be technically impossible to infiltrate. So you have to break the RAW to even allow Shrike and a unit to be deployed as infiltrators.

Second, as for the RAW being "clear" that Shrike passes his special rule onto another character that joins a unit, simply put: They aren't clear. Page 48 says that ICs joining a unit don't get that unit's special rules unless the rule specifies otherwise. The exact level of specificity needed for a special rule to be passed onto a joining IC is unclear, and therefore the issue is unclear.

yakface wrote:

Augustus wrote:...another argument where RAW is clear but community consensus is something else...

First off, RAW unless Shrike is being put into Reserves with a unit (thus allowing them all to outflank) he can't join a unit until he is actually deployed with them, at which point it would be technically impossible to infiltrate. So you have to break the RAW to even allow Shrike and a unit to be deployed as infiltrators.

Really? But the rule says the squad gains infiltrate, and they are deployed together, since the squad has infiltrate and they are being deployed at the same time, the same time as they gain the infiltrate ability. It's pretty obvious...

Wait a second are you arguing by RAW that Shrike's power doesn't even work (outside of the 2nd attached IC issue) because of some timing issue. Really?

yakface wrote:Second, as for the RAW being "clear" that Shrike passes his special rule onto another character that joins a unit, simply put: They aren't clear. Page 48 says that ICs joining a unit don't get that unit's special rules unless the rule specifies otherwise.

But it does explicitly specify otherwise, it says the unit gains infiltrate, if the 2nd IC isn't part of the unit then what is he?

Don't you think it very odd this wasn't in the FAQ at least? Possibly because it is simpler than the timing issue you have invented? Or more likely because it was not considered?

Augustus wrote:

Really? But the rule says the squad gains infiltrate, and they are deployed together, since the squad has infiltrate and they are being deployed at the same time, the same time as they gain the infiltrate ability. It's pretty obvious...

Wait a second are you arguing by RAW that Shrike's power doesn't even work (outside of the 2nd attached IC issue) because of some timing issue. Really?

There is no rule allowing an IC to join a unit before deploying except when putting the IC and that unit into reserve together. As such Shrike can't join a unit until he is deployed with it. See page 48 of the rules:

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."


You made a comment about the 'RAW' in this case, and I just wanted to point out what that actually was. An IC can start the game by being deployed in coherency with them, but there is NO RULE allowing the character to join the unit before being deployed with them. A unit without infiltrate has to be deployed at the start of the battle or held in reserve, a unit that is going to have Shrike deployed into coherency with them will therefore already have to be on the table when it comes time for infiltrators to deploy.

But it does explicitly specify otherwise, it says the unit gains infiltrate, if the 2nd IC isn't part of the unit then what is he?

See page 48 for an example of what specificity could be required depending on your point of view. The 'stubborn' USR (used as an example in the rules for a special rule that is specific enough to be passed onto a joined IC) specifically says what happens when a character with stubborn joins a unit. Ergo, some believe that in order for Shrike's ability to be passed onto joined ICs it would have to say something like: "Shrike (and any models in his squad including other characters) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule. . ."

Don't you think it very odd this wasn't in the FAQ at least? Possibly because it is simpler than the timing issue you have invented? Or more likely because it was not considered?

I didn't "invent" the timing issue, that's the rule. Second, GW's SM FAQ didn't really address any of the really big issues with the codex, so no, I'm not really surprised at all.

I see what you did thar. So unless he could come with a retinue he would never be able to actually infiltrate.. he can only use his special rule to outflank (with another unit)

He can infiltrate on his own though cant he..

But yeah, I am enligthened.. cheers.

Razerous wrote:I see what you did thar. So unless he could come with a retinue he would never be able to actually infiltrate.. he can only use his special rule to outflank (with another unit)

He can infiltrate on his own though cant he..

But yeah, I am enligthened.. cheers.

Except that there are no actual retinues in the SM codex, just command squads that ICs can join when deploying.

So RAW the only thing Shrike's ability can do for another unit is to allow him and them to all outflank together.

I don't think that was the intention of the rule and I think 95%+ of people would agree, which is why in the INAT FAQ that Shrike can indeed join a unit before the game and infiltrate with them despite the fact that it isn't the RAW.

Indeed.

I had the same problem with Khan and outflank, until it was pointed out to me that ANY unit may be held in reserve now. Unfortunately for Shrike (RAW-wise), the actual rules contradict his ability. This is one case where RAI is clear just by the wording of the special rule; most people read it as being incomplete.