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I've been researching the Daemon army lately (40k and Fantasy) as I've recently won some models at the Bunker..

From the looks of it, the tactics change greatly depending on which Gods favor I go for, which I think is perfect because I like variation in play style within the same army. What I'm wondering now are just how viable each of these tactics are in a semi-competitive environment?

I'm not incredibly interested in Slaanesh units since it looks like they are far too squishy for my tastes. My Orks die fast enough to know that a 5+ anything can only go so far if you have a unit max of 20 while being Fearless and their units (Daemonettes & Seekers) are only T3. That plus from the sound of it I should really be taking my troops as MSU so groups of 20 may be a bad idea.

I'm definitely over 2000pts, but this is just a rough idea for now.

HQ:
Bloodthirster
-Unholy Might

Herald of Tzeentch / Khorne (open for suggestions, but seems like there is potential here)
w/ Chariot and more as points allow

Epidemius (Not sure how well he really fits in here. I don't seem to have enough Nurgle followers to make it worth while unless green soul grinders are acceptable.. )

ELITES:
Flamers of Tzeentch x 3
Flamers of Tzeentch x 3

Bloocrushers of Khorne x 8
-Icon
-Fury

TROOPS:
Bloodletters x 10
Bloodletters x 10
(Possibly need more letters?)

Plaguebearers x 10
-Icon
-Noxious Touch
Plaguebearers x 10
-Icon
-Noxious Touch

HEAVY:
Soul Grinder
-Phlegm
Soul Grinder
-Phlegm
Soul Grinder (maybe a Tzeentch or Nurgle DP instead?)
-Phlegm

I've read a lot about how Fateweaver is good with Blood Crushers, but I'm just not seeing it I think. I assume he's there for the save re-rolls, but if he fails he just up and dies? That's pretty lame and doesn't sound like a wise use of points... maybe I'm interpreting it wrong?

I also would like to try an all if not mostly Tzeentch list sometime, but it looks like it would be overwhelmed in CC if I'm not careful, so I'd rather try working on something slightly more balanced first. Any advice or modifications I might need to make? Helpful hints and so forth? All constructive criticism is welcome.

Oh and just how bad is it when we play DH? It seems like they would put a serious hurtin on any Daemon list. =/

Mucho Gracias!

i'd say ditch epidemius, 20 plague bearers are gona be too busy sitting up in the objective.

A khorne herald with a chariot and U.Might is great for the points. 4W Str6/7 on a charge. 5 attacks 3+/5+ for only 100pts.

I'd say lessen the plague bearers to 7. since you have 2 squads. and possible add some horrors. Im liking your BC squads, but i recomment you split them into 2 squads of 4. just to be able to bring out more units in each half.

PS, if you want to go real nuts, take out 2 heralds and a flamer squad, and put Fateweaver there. Him with Bloodthirster is scarey, they dunno what they're gona shoot at, i've tried it already.

And im on the group of daemon players that dont use icons, just too much points for something you cant use in the crucial daemon turn, (the first wave)

The thirster needs Blessing as well.
I'd go for a couple of Khorne heralds, in chariots they're like tiny DPs.
No Epi.
Flamers and crushers are good.
Don't need noxious on PBs.
Instead of 3x SGs, go for 2x and a DP.
Fateweaver is good with crusherspam, which you aren't running. He only leaves if he fails his re-rollable 3++ and a subsequent morale check (~3% chance per wound).
DH only really hurt if you don't have SGs or Iron Hide MC spam. They don't have much to counter them, and a good Phlegm can kill an entire squad.

I've been running a mono tzeentch daemon army for a local campaign and I have a lot of bat reps that you can read through if you want to. The tzeentch daemons do really suck in hth, using some daemon princes help a little bit but you definitely don't win any awards.

You are really lacking on anti-tank right now taking 2 heralds of tzeentch on chariots would help it out. I would also reduce your squads sizes a bit and add in the unit of horror's like someone enmitee said. Having a little bit of shooting never hurts especially against tau and eldar.

How many crushers would be necessary for crusher spam in the first place? Those things are so incredibly strong I find it hard to imagine needing more than 8 if you have Fateweaver.

I was considering dropping a Grinder and replacing with some kind of DP. I wanted a list using 2 DP's and a Grinder, but I wasn't sure which kind of DP I liked yet. They all seem so useful in their own respects.. Daemon Princes have such good options I find it hard to choose.. A Tzeentch DP might make for some pretty mobile tank busting. Also, for my current 3xGrinder list, couldn't I also give one or two both Phlegm and Tongue so I can just choose use whatever ordinance I like? I know their BS isn't the best though.. then again if I had a Tzeentch DP, he'd be making shots on a 2+ and then 2 Grinders with phlegm and tongue?

When fighting DH, don't they have some kind of ability to lower my entire army's statlines?

uhm no they dont. lol. oh 2x5 crushers is a good enough crusher spam with fateweaver. and concerning DPs.personally, i alot a whole bunch of points on them. (215pts each) tho they get the job done in my opinion just read any battle report i have done. , if thats a bit too costy for you i'd say a slaanesh dp with iron hide/Pavane/Might. is enough for a semi multi roll DP that can set up assaults for your crushers.

Well, one thing I'm wondering about Pavane is just how useful is it? I know it's basically Lash of Submission, but it's half the distance you get from Lash and also it's one time use per unit for the whole game.. Lash on the other hand is 2d6 inches and you can spam it all game long.

Is fateweaver a must have for crusher spam? I'm somewhat concerned about how heavily melee based this army is at the moment. Like you guys mentioned, some shooty anti tank units would be nice. Kinda makes me rethink strategy here and think heavy Tzeentch is really the way to go?

How bad is the shooting after the first turn deep strike in? For arguement's sake, let's assume no fateweaver.

breadhat wrote:Well, one thing I'm wondering about Pavane is just how useful is it? I know it's basically Lash of Submission, but it's half the distance you get from Lash and also it's one time use per unit for the whole game.. Lash on the other hand is 2d6 inches and you can spam it all game long.

No, it's once per unit/per turn. It's quite nice...it essentially gives one unit in your army fleet that wouldn't otherwise have it, or it bunches up enemies nicely for flamers.

breadhat wrote:
Is fateweaver a must have for crusher spam? I'm somewhat concerned about how heavily melee based this army is at the moment. Like you guys mentioned, some shooty anti tank units would be nice. Kinda makes me rethink strategy here and think heavy Tzeentch is really the way to go?

Absolutely not. I've got a fateweaver model that sees the table occassionally, but the big problem with fateweaver (in my mind) is that your army essentially becomes dependent on him. That restricts your ability to maneuver, and if fateweaver isn't arround (because you rolled poorly) you can be up the creek without a paddle.

breadhat wrote:
How bad is the shooting after the first turn deep strike in? For arguement's sake, let's assume no fateweaver.

Depends on way too many factors.

Centurian99 wrote:No, it's once per unit/per turn. It's quite nice...it essentially gives one unit in your army fleet that wouldn't otherwise have it, or it bunches up enemies nicely for flamers.

Oh well that's tough to beat then... that really changes a lot of options. Gah this army is just too much fun!! XD I suppose the best thing for me to do for now is just hold off on Fateweaver. I'll play my army out the way that I want to for now and if it comes to it, I'll bring him into the mix. It seems a tad bit much to begin with, but meh.. we'll see. I'm a little worried about horde armies as they can throw down a lot of saturation in close combat. That and mech lists would likely give this army lots of grief.

And yes, I think I was a bit too general. The first turn shooting I think will just have to be something I work out over time with practice. I've always played Orks so I've never been concerned before about losing 5-10 troops to a round of shooting. Normally it's more than that lol

If your asking about how shooting goes on the first turn of DS, yesterday it was the first time i fought IG against a vet player in my FLGS. I got my wrong wave to. Il post the BR soon. lets just say, his shooting killed off 2 units out of my 6 that DSed in. It was looking grim for me. but as turn 3 came up, i slaughtered the guard line. giving me the win. keep an eye out when i post the Battle report. Just waiting on photos.

PS: about being shot at, i've played a good number of games now (every week) and There are certain daemons, (heralds/crushers) that are simply specialist in attrition games.

Yea, it seems like a crucial part is clever placement for drops and hoping you can get to cover. At least that's what it sounds like after reading batreps.

My revised 1500pt list will likely be something like this:

HQ:
Bloodthirster w/ might, blessing of khorne, instrument
Blue Scribes

Elites:
8 bloodcrushers w/ icon, fury, instrument
3 Flamers

Troops:
10 letters w/ icon, fury of khorne
10 plague bearers w/ icon
7 horrors w/ changeling, bolt of tzeentch

Heavy:
Soul Grinder w/ tongue
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm

This gets me to 1499.. I'm still somewhat tempted to try and find ways to give my plaguebearers noxious cuz i mean honestly.. who doesn't want to wound on a 2+? But their purpose is not for fighting so I'll hold off till I do a nurgle heavy list.

Also something I've wondered, why do people give their units such specific numbers of models? Like 9 horrors and 8 plaguebearers? I prolly have the numbers wrong but is there some kind of fluff behind it that I'm missing?

breadhat wrote:Also something I've wondered, why do people give their units such specific numbers of models? Like 9 horrors and 8 plaguebearers? I prolly have the numbers wrong but is there some kind of fluff behind it that I'm missing?

The Sacred Numbers of the Gods. Each God has a different number which is traditionally important to them.

Slaanesh: 6
Nurgle: 7
Khorne: 8
Tzeentch: 9

If you want an easy way to remember, each Daemon Troops choice costs 8 plus the sacred number per model (so Plaguebearers are 15)

Theoretically, this has absolutely no impact on army design, but most gamers seem to gravitate to these numbers when the minimum unit size isn't the ideal size. It's not uncommon to see things like 2 x 4 Crushers (8 total) and core units of 7 Plaguebearers and 8 Bloodletters.

It's also why Kairos costs 333 points - the total of the digits is nine.

breadhat wrote:I'm still somewhat tempted to try and find ways to give my plaguebearers noxious

I think you're a little confused. that 10 point upgrade gives *one* of the plaguebearers noxious touch. that means for 10 points, you get 1 attack that wounds on 2+ instead of 4+ (or two if you charge). Their regular poisoned weapons work just fine, particularly because you're wounding space marines 75% of the time.

enmitee wrote:his shooting killed off 2 units out of my 6 that DSed in

no offense to your IG opponent, but if you were playing a game large enough for you to have 11 or 12 units, and his equally large army failed to kill more than two, he's probably not that much of a vet

Is there any specific benefit to running them in those numbered groups? I went over the codex to find any mention of these numbers and it wasn't in the fluff, so I didnt really see the significance.

And yes I see that now about the Plaguebearers. I misread it. Thanks for clarifying.

The Defenestrator wrote:

breadhat wrote:I'm still somewhat tempted to try and find ways to give my plaguebearers noxious

I think you're a little confused. that 10 point upgrade gives *one* of the plaguebearers noxious touch. that means for 10 points, you get 1 attack that wounds on 2+ instead of 4+ (or two if you charge). Their regular poisoned weapons work just fine, particularly because you're wounding space marines 75% of the time.

enmitee wrote:his shooting killed off 2 units out of my 6 that DSed in

no offense to your IG opponent, but if you were playing a game large enough for you to have 11 or 12 units, and his equally large army failed to kill more than two, he's probably not that much of a vet

Oh not at all, it was a 1.5k game. he was an Infantry heavy army with a basilisk for a tank, conscripts to screen me and about 6-7 heavy weapon/platoons. + rough riders + out flanking jungle fighters or whatever. deploying in one flank, gave me cover saves for atleast half his teams.



@bread hat. there's no special benefit from having the sacred god's chosen number.

breadhat wrote:Is there any specific benefit to running them in those numbered groups? I went over the codex to find any mention of these numbers and it wasn't in the fluff, so I didnt really see the significance.

Your dice will roll better, and veteran gamers will salute your adherence to old fluff.

I'm all for my dice rolling better =P

Although I think something like that would be really fitting for a daemon army. Those kinds of superstitions are what help define them as daemons.

I did some research into it and from the looks of it if your units were in adherence with the daemon's sacred number you would get a +1 to their deep strike roll? Why isn't that still in effect again? That's an ideal incentive to do it if you ask me. Seriously, a +1 would be like Dark Gifts granted to us for our devotion.

I demand an errata! lol

yeah that would be a really nice incentive.

Errata seconded.