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A Tau Character with a shield drone joins a squad that also has a shield drone. Ostensibly the two shield drones are the exact same (amusing the same T and Sv values are on the character and the unit), but the drones are wargear for two different controllers. Does this make them two distinct unit types for wound allocation? The rules say anything that makes them different in any way game play wise, but they are only different when it comes down to removing them if the controller dies. Opinions?

I think the two sets of drones end up being different on the basis that their special rules differ--the IC's drones are eliminated when that model is eliminated, the other drones are eliminated when their controller is eliminated. Otherwise you're making the decision "Whose drones were eliminated?" after saves are taken.

Imagine the situation where the IC was allocated a wound and so were all four drones. If the IC and two drones suffer a fatal wound, how many drones do you have left? The only fair thing to do would be to randomize the wounds, and because of that they should be treated as two different sets of drones for wound allocation.

solkan wrote:I think the two sets of drones end up being different on the basis that their special rules differ--the IC's drones are eliminated when that model is eliminated, the other drones are eliminated when their controller is eliminated. Otherwise you're making the decision "Whose drones were eliminated?" after saves are taken.

Imagine the situation where the IC was allocated a wound and so were all four drones. If the IC and two drones suffer a fatal wound, how many drones do you have left? The only fair thing to do would be to randomize the wounds, and because of that they should be treated as two different sets of drones for wound allocation.

The rulebook sets the criteria for when models are considered the same and the Shield drones meet this criteria.

In the situation you describe the Tau player decides how to roll his saves so he should just roll the saves for the Drones first and then resolve the saves against the Battlesuits. And even if he does it vice-versa it doesn't matter because at that point all wounds have already been allocated.

Can a battle suit with shield drones even join another unit? I was under the impression that they could not. I could very well be crazy though its happened before

Maleficorum wrote:Can a battle suit with shield drones even join another unit? I was under the impression that they could not. I could very well be crazy though its happened before

Only if they were an IC when they purchased the drones, so a Tau commander with drones may, but a standard battlesuit team with a lone suit could not.

I thought when an IC suit bought drones it became a unit.

GMMStudios wrote:I thought when an IC suit bought drones it became a unit.

Well, and IC is a unit on his own and when he takes drones they form a unit together. However the Tau codex still allows that unit to join another unit.

I mean, he loses IC status.

Sorry. Its late.

yakface wrote:

The rulebook sets the criteria for when models are considered the same and the Shield drones meet this criteria.

In the situation you describe the Tau player decides how to roll his saves so he should just roll the saves for the Drones first and then resolve the saves against the Battlesuits. And even if he does it vice-versa it doesn't matter because at that point all wounds have already been allocated.

I'm shocked to be saying this but I think you miss the nuance of the question.

In regards to the rulebook determining if the drones are the same or different I have to disagree with you. The rulebook says "same in game terms". The drones are not the same in game terms, because if the model with the drone controller dies, just his own drones die as well. Not all drones in a unit, and not, just the drones I want to die.

It's not so much about allocation, as about who's drone is who's. I'm going to try one more example.

battlesuit commander with drone controller and two gun drones joins a single battlesuit chosen from the elites slot that also has a drone controller and two gun drones. In the enemy shooting phase, the unit takes a wound, allocates it to 'a' gun drone, and fails its save.

In the following movement phase the IC commander decides to leave the unit. How many gun drones does he get to take with him?

If you said, two or one, its entirely up to him, I'd say that was a very creative interpretation of the rules. If you said we need to determine if the gun drone that died was under his control or the elite choice battlesuit, well, then they are different in game terms, and therefore are unique wound buckets.

I agree with Shep. You need to allocate them separately.

Actually can we simplify it even more. THink about a standard 3 suit team, each suit takes a drone controller and one drone. Seems like you would have to know which drone belongs to which suit for casualty removal reasons, which I think backs up the fact that they are different models in game terms.

Shep wrote:

yakface wrote:

The rulebook sets the criteria for when models are considered the same and the Shield drones meet this criteria.

In the situation you describe the Tau player decides how to roll his saves so he should just roll the saves for the Drones first and then resolve the saves against the Battlesuits. And even if he does it vice-versa it doesn't matter because at that point all wounds have already been allocated.

I'm shocked to be saying this but I think you miss the nuance of the question.

In regards to the rulebook determining if the drones are the same or different I have to disagree with you. The rulebook says "same in game terms". The drones are not the same in game terms, because if the model with the drone controller dies, just his own drones die as well. Not all drones in a unit, and not, just the drones I want to die.

It's not up to you what "same in game terms means". This is clearly defined in the BRB (under Complex Units):

"By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

So all shield drones in a unit are the same in game terms. As are all gun drones and markerlight drones.

There's not really an option here to differentiate drones based on who is the controller.

3 Suits, all unique, all with 1 shield drone.

Unit has 1 shield drone left, all three suits. One suit is killed.

Who's shield drone was it? Does the drone stay on the table? Do you d6 it? 1 or 2, it was for the guy that was killed?

I would prefer all three shield drones count as the 'same' for wound allocation, but it gets messy once you start losing suits. Which, I think, means you need to allocated to each drone.

Wow, Tau might be able to abuse Wound Allocation even more than Nob Bikers.

dietrich wrote:3 Suits, all unique, all with 1 shield drone.

Unit has 1 shield drone left, all three suits. One suit is killed.

Who's shield drone was it? Does the drone stay on the table? Do you d6 it? 1 or 2, it was for the guy that was killed?

I would prefer all three shield drones count as the 'same' for wound allocation, but it gets messy once you start losing suits. Which, I think, means you need to allocated to each drone.

Wow, Tau might be able to abuse Wound Allocation even more than Nob Bikers.

All three shield drones are definately the same for wound allocation because they have the same profile in their statistics and are equipped the same. It's up to the Tau player to decide which drone is killed and which suit controls which one.

Most Tau players I've encountered paint drones with markings (numbers, symbols, etc.) which match the suit that is controlling them. That way it is easy to tell what belongs to what. However, different paint jobs don't make them different for wound group purposes.

I thought that the Tau shield drones had a rule where they take the hit first like the nid tyrant guard

This quote:


"By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

Is the best argument against this fancy wound allocation, I think. But I'm not (completely) convinced. Not sure how you'd argue around this though, so I won't be trying it anytime soon.


And no, Drones have no special rule like tyrant guard where they take the hit first.

wilsmire wrote:I thought that the Tau shield drones had a rule where they take the hit first like the nid tyrant guard

This is OT. But what Tyranid rule are you referring to?

There is no such Nid rule.

lambadomy wrote:"By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

Is the best argument against this fancy wound allocation, I think. But I'm not (completely) convinced. Not sure how you'd argue around this though, so I won't be trying it anytime soon.

Each Drone is assigned to one Suit.
If a Suit is removed, its Drones are removed too. That, arguably, qualifies as different special rules. If the drones were assigned to the Unit of Suits, it wouldn't be an issue. But, since they're each assigned to a specific Suit, I think it is different special rules. Assume each Suit is Unique.

Suit 1 - Drone A and B - 2 shield drones
Suit 2 - Drone C - 1 shield drone
Suit 3 - Drone D and E - Markerdrone and Gun Drone

Now, if A and B would count as 'the same' for wound allocation. But, they can't be lumped with C, since they're different Suits (if Suit 1 is removed, Drones A and B are removed as well). Drones D and E would be allocated seperately since they're different.

dietrich: yeah, I see - I had also thought about defining the rules for drones and their controllers as a "special rule" which would then get them out of the "same in game terms" definition. I couldn't find any specific definition of "special rule" in the rulebook so it seems open to interpretation.

The drones can clearly be allocated wounds as yakface described because they are the same as defined by the rulebook. The other issue you are talking about, with regard to suits losing drones if they are removed, doesn't conflict with the wound allocation rules at all. It means the Tau player must more clearly define which drones belong to which suits better.

In your example above dietrich, wounds could be allocated to drones A, B or C, but if suit 1 or suit 2 is removed, then you also would lose the drones. It would then be important to know which drones are A, B and C, so you can keep track.

whitedragon wrote:The drones can clearly be allocated wounds as yakface described because they are the same as defined by the rulebook. The other issue you are talking about, with regard to suits losing drones if they are removed, doesn't conflict with the wound allocation rules at all. It means the Tau player must more clearly define which drones belong to which suits better.

In your example above dietrich, wounds could be allocated to drones A, B or C, but if suit 1 or suit 2 is removed, then you also would lose the drones. It would then be important to know which drones are A, B and C, so you can keep track.

But that's the entire point: If you have to keep track of which to which group the drones belong, wouldn't it be quicker, simpler and in keeping with the spirit of the rules to just consider them as seperate groups?

Or is there just that much of a stigma against wound allocation grouping that people don't want to use it even when it can avoid problems like that?

I would prefer it if Drones A, B, and C were considered the same for Wound Allocation. I'm just not sure that it works.

dietrich wrote:I would prefer it if Drones A, B, and C were considered the same for Wound Allocation. I'm just not sure that it works.

agreed.

Like you said before, a drone dies because its controller dies sounds to me like a rule and since it is not a common rule I would consider it special

I'd rather have it simple and easy, but this forum is about the real rules.

drones from different controllers are different in game terms, because one of the terms of the game is that they die if the controller they were purchased under dies. end of line.

Shep wrote:I'd rather have it simple and easy, but this forum is about the real rules.

I believe that my interpretation is supported by the rules, requires no artificial groupings or assumptions, and breaks no other rule. I believe you all are making this more complicated of an issue than it needs to be. The "differences" that you speak of are similar to the difference between a model with a spent combi weapon. I feel that those types of nuances create "artificial" differences that are not supported by the rules, much as the difference between each controller's drones. They are still "shield drones" and are part of the same complex unit.

I think your interpretation could also be valid, but hinges on what criteria you use to label a model as "different". I feel that the rulebook does not make the distinction as minute as you do. But that may be a discussion for another thread.

So, INAT says that models with one-shot weapons, expended or not, are treated as 'the same' for wound allocation. Honestly, I forgot about that ruling. Applying the same logic to Crisis Suits would result in all drones of the same type being 'the same' for wound allocation.

Presumably, when the 'models with one-shot weapons' group takes casualties, it's permissable to remove models that have expended their one-shot weapon.

Therefore, I would say that if You play all shield drones in the unit are 'the same', then You only remove shield drones to get back to '2 drones per suit' limit.

So, going back to my example.

Suits 1-3 have lost one shield drone. Suit 2 is killed. Remaining Shield Drones stay on the table since Suit 1 started with 2.

Suits 1-3 have lost one shield drone. Suit 1 is killed. One Shield Drone is lost, and the last one stays on the board since Suit 2 only started with one shield drone.

I think you either have to play all drones are 'the same' and 'surviving Suits keep as many as possible'
OR allocate wounds to Drones assigned to different Suits.

Also consider that every drone in that unit has the exact same special rule 'controlled by a crisis suit'. So they are still identical because they share the same special rule.

Thre are only 3 things to consider, per RAW, when determining if models are in an identical grouping:

1) Same statistics in profile
2) Same equipment
3) Same special rules

By all of these definitions and in all views presented in this thread so far, the answer to 1, 2, and 3 is "yes".

But, they're not the same special rules because if Suit 1 is destroyed, Drones A and B have to removed. If Suit 2 is destoryed, Drone C has to be removed.

As I said above, I think it's either:
All Drones the same, but if a Suit is destroyed, remaining Suits can keep up to their starting number
OR
Drones treated as separate for each Suit.

But, I don't think you can treat all Drones the same and then do some 'dice off' when a Suit is destroyed to see if the remaining ones were that Suits or the other(s).

It's the same rule for every drone. The rule just ties them to a different unit. That doesn't mean the rule is different, only the subject of the rule. The BRB doesn't say anything about differentiating the source of a rule for different models.

No 'dice off' is needed if you make it clear through painting, modeling, or marking which drone belongs to which specific crisis suit. Modeling to the rules is nothing new to 40K or unique to Tau.

Then the same standard would have to apply to models with one-shot weapons. Somehow you need to mark them to designate which ones have expended their one-shot. I know that INAT says they are 'the same' for wound allocation, but doesn't say you need to mark which ones have expended their weapons. How have people been playing that?