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So I'm going to be getting into WHFB over the summer, after playing WH40k and Warmachine. I'm digging the high elves, and I'm especially interested in the magic system. Here's a list I came up with that, is fully intended to be used in friendly games between close friends. No one will be bringing "cheesy" lists. I will be playing against Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, and Empire. Anyways here's the list, let me know if some things should be changed:

Level 2 Mage … 185
+ Silver Wand
+ Ring of Fury

Level 2 Mage … 185
+ Seerstaff
+ Dispel Scroll

Noble … 168
+ Battle Standard Bearer
+ Dragon Armor
+ Shield
+ Helm of Fortune
+ Sword of Might

17 Phoenix Guard… 335
+ Full Command
+ Banner of Sorcery

10 Sea Guard … 135
+ Shields


10 Sea Guard … 135
+ Shields


6 Shadow-Warriors ... 96

6 Shadow-Warriors ... 96

5 Dragon Princes ... 215 (Do I have to pay for the standard bearer upgrade AND the price of the banner?)
+ Standard Bearer
+ Banner of Elyrion

Comes to 1500 on the nose. I'd hide a mage in each sea guard unit, which protects each flank of the Phoenix Guard. The Noble joins the Phoenix Guard giving me a pretty solid battle line. The Shadow-Warriors take out war machines and most importantly march block to give me precious magic phases. The Dragon Princes are held in reserve in order to charge anything tough I get stuck in with. I'm also considering giving the Noble the Gem of Hoeth and using him to drain magic and give an extra dispel dice. The downside would be he wouldn't be nearly as survivable. What do you guys think?

Quick answer to Dragon Princes : Yes, you pay for the standard bearer, and on top of that you pay for the magice banner.

Any idea which Magic Lores you'll be planning on taking?

Now to the list:

Honestly, I really don't care for Sea Guard myself. I feel like you would gain more from having a dedicated archer and/or spear block. I love the concept of the Sea Guard, it's just that game-wise, I don't see them as being worth their points in either configuration.

I take it you took musicians and some other command models in some of your units (Sea Guard seem to have musicians, Dragon Princes seem to have full command).

I would recommend for this kind of list to strip down the Dragon Princes. While they're fairly resilient and fast, they're clearly your main CC unit, and as such, will be a huge target priority. With T3, even their 3+ save isn't going to hold up that long, especially if they get mired in CC. These guys don't really have any other back-up in the list - you don't want them rolling through Difficult Terrain with no support. If anything, considering the armies you'll be facing, I'd take the Lion Standard, or the Standard of Balance on your BSB to counter-act Fear (you'll be seeing lots of it between VCs and TKs).

I really would recommend a Repeater Bolt Thrower - bows alone aren't going to do any significant amount of shooting damage. An RBT + Curse of Arrow Attraction = lots of dead enemies. Consider dropping one of the units of Shadow Warriors for it.

I see you're planning on running a 6x3 block for the PG. I personally have started favoring 5x3, but that's more a matter of preference.

If you're really keen on going magic-heavy, I'd suggest dropping the BSB and just going with 3 mages. HE mages aren't so great that two level 2s will help overwhelm enemy magic-defense. Also, especially against VC's and TKs, the extra Dispel Die will be helpful.


EDIT* also, I should read all of your post before I post (missed the bottom bit).

Some additional points -
10 Sea Guard really aren't going to be able to protect the PG flanks. They just won't deal enough damage to overcome any wounds that they take. At 10 strong, most enemy infantry will probably be able to beat them with SCR alone.

Great Eagles make for more points efficient March Blockers, imo.

Try to decide if you want to focus on Magic Offense or Magic Defense. Annulian Crystal is pretty good if you're going the Magic Defense route.

Hey thanks for the reply.

Regarding your comments,

I didn't give the Dragon Prince's any command, I did the math from memory, though.

As far as lores go, I was thinking about giving the one with silver wand fire, and the one with seerstaff light if facing VC/TK, metal if DE, and I'm not really sure what works best against Empire.

I'll definitely drop a shadow-warrior unit for a RBT.

Would I be better off getting a unit of 10 archers + Hawkeye and having them babysit two RBT's?

If I take 3 mages, or at least 2, what units could I keep them safe in?

Can I put two mages in one unit?

I'll think about Eagles, I just think the Shadow-Warriors are really cool

Thanks!

re: Dragon Princes - they're 30 a piece, so with out any other command asides from that standard bearer with Banner of Ellyrian, you get an extra 30 points to play with.

With regards to archers, I always like to take them as cheap as possible. They won't cause too much damage, but they can maybe knock off a rank from a not too heavily armored infantry block. Your mileage may vary. In terms of core, I almost always prefer having a block of spears over archers unless I feel that it wouldn't be as fluffy as taking archers or sea guard. A big block of spears is an amazingly reliable unit, in my experience.

re: Mages - One can be pretty safe with Phoenix Guard, given that you can avoid challenges if it comes up, and you can benefit from their Ward Saves. You could run another with archers (if that's what you end up going with), or just keep them running around in the safety of woods (High Magic is nice to have since most of the spells don't require LOS). You can have as many characters in a unit as you want, though generally speaking, this isn't always such a great idea.

I like Shadow Warriors, and probably will plan on using some at some point, though I feel like Great Eagles are slightly more worthwhile. Granted, this is just opinion, and I've not had too much experience running them yet.

Hope these comments help!

Heck with standard of balance or lion standard on BSB. Give him the Battle Banner. undead hate that thing. Yeah, they cause fear, but you can give the lion banner to the unit standard if you really think you might need it. with the BSB and the Battle banner on top of the unit standard you have a CR of 3-8 depending on the roll, which, on top of any wounds you caused should be enough to win the combat, or at least tie.
i agree with HFJor on the Seaguard. maybe if they had Longbows they might be worth it, or came with shields instead of having to buy them, or heavy armour, or could shoot in two ranks. any one of those might make them worth it, but as they are now, they aren't.
I would consider running as many of your units (except Dragon princes) at 7 wide. with Always Strikes First, you will be maximizing the number of attacks you can get on most units while minimizing the amount of people hacking back at you. DP should be at six wide, so 5 of them with your BSB. Oh, and HFJor, DP's have a 2+ save as they come with shields as standard equipment.
Phoenix guard are great. The 4+ ward helps keep them alive longer than any other Elf unit, and they cause fear, which I find is most helpful to keep you from running from fear causers, and helps with terror.

Ok, I've got an amended list... let me know what ya think:

Level 2 Mage ... 185
+ Silver Wand
+ Ring of Fury

Level 2 Mage ... 165
+ Seerstaff of Sapphery

Noble ... 159
+ Gem of Hoeth
+ Battle Standard Bearer
+ Heavy Armor

10 Archers ... 120
+ Hawkeye

17 Phoenix Guard ... 335
+ Full Command
+ Banner of Sorcery

11 Swordmasters ... 170

11 Swordmasters ... 170

6 Shadow-Warriors ... 96

RBT ... 100

Comes to 1500 on the dot.

Alrite, here's the new plan:

Noble choses Lore of Beasts and defeaults for Bear's Anger, essentially giving him 6 str 6 attacks. He goes with the Phoenix Guard.

Level 2 Mage's choices depend on opponent. One mage goes in each swordmaster unit.

The swordmasters (6x2) hang a bit behind the Phoenix Guard (6x3), ready to engage anything that tries to go for the PG's flank. The PG march up the middle taking whatever the enemy has to throw at them.

The archers try to find a hill, and camp on it with the RBT.

The Shadow-Warriors hunt warmachines and the like.

What do you guys think?

First off: The points for the Swordmasters are off. They're 15/model so you have an extra 10 points to play with.

Second off: Be REALLY careful with Swordmasters, especially considering your opponents can bring out lots of un-cheesy shooting. If they get in CC, they're great, but until then, they have to make sure they don't get ripped up by enemy shooting. This generally requires lots of Magic Support - they NEED to have Shield of Saphery cast regularly on them. Considering the other stuff that you've got in the list, the Swordmasters come off as a high target priority for shooting given that they're the easiest to take out and are the biggest threat if they reach CC.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd go with White Lions over Swordmasters. Sure, they get less attacks, but they can move through woods and hit at S6, which is immensely handy. Plus, they get a nice 3+ save against shooting. Swordmasters are more fluffy in a Magic Heavy list, but they're just too prone to shooting death, unless you don't mind baby-sitting them with magic. If you keep the Swordmasters, maybe consider not putting the mages in with the units, but rather nearby, and in woods somewhere.

Always have at least one mage on High Magic because, imo, High Magic has great support spells. Also, I would strongly suggest you get 2 Dispel Scrolls somehow. You'll need them.

As for the noble - I'm tempted to suggest that you don't make him a BSB, since he'll be likely to take a bunch of hits and isn't well armored, and give him a Great Weapon just in case Bear's Anger doesn't go off, so at least you'll still hit with S6.

Otherwise, I quite like the list. Very fluffy Hoeth list.

@Arion: Ah yes, 2+, you're right. I forgot they have barded steeds. I really should remember it's 2+ considering I run a DP-heavy list.

Swordmasters need that little item that makes their atks magical, OR the one that gives them magic res, especially vs VC

Ok, in response to your guys comments, I have made another revision. I am a little concerned because the inclusion of Dragon Princes introduces the Caledor element which I would like to avoid for fluff reasons. Unfortunately, DP's are just infinitely better than their Silver Helm brothers...

Level 2 Mage … 185
(Lore of Fire)
+ Silver Wand
+ Ring of Fury
- Lore of … Depending on Opponent, most likely Beasts

Level 2 Mage (135) … 185
+ Seerstaff
+ Dispel Scroll
- Lore of Sapphery
o Fury of Khaine (2d6 magic missiles)
o Curse of Arrow Attraction (re-roll all missile attacks against target)
o Drain Magic

Noble (85) … 158
+ Radiant Gem of Hoeth
+ Dragon Armor
+ Lance
+ Barded Elven Steed
+ Shield
- Lore of Sapphery
o Shield of Sapphery (5+ Ward save for Unit)
o Drain Magic

10 Archers … 110

17 Phoenix Guard … 335
+ Full Command
+ Banner of Sorcery

6 Swordmasters … 90

6 Swordmasters … 90

5 Dragon Princes … 150

6 Shadow Warriors … 96

RBT … 100

1499

7+D3 PD + 1 Bound Item (Pow. 3), 5 DD + 1 Scroll

Ok, so the first mage listed goes with the Phoenix Guard. The swordmasters have been cut nearly in half, and are now MSU's, protecting the PG's flanks. The Mage w/ the Seerstaff joins the Archers, who in turn are protecting the RBT. The idea being the mage will put out magic missiles, and provide re-rolls for both the RBT and archers, giving a solid fire support unit. The Noble w/ Gem of Hoeth obviously goes with the DP's. He's mostly there to Drain Magic, but can use Shield of Sapphery to give the DP's, as well as himself, a 2+/5+. The Shadow Warriors still hunt down warmachines.

What do you guys think? I'm also interested in ways you might drop the DP's, and possibly reconfigure the Noble, in order to make the list more fluffy (i.e. Hoeth/Sapphery emphasis, with no other distinct Kingdom-oriented units.)

Really appreciate the tips guys, thanks so much.

Eh, I don't think you need to have Dragon Princes in the list. There's something to be said about an all infantry army.

This list runs best defensively anyways, I don't think you'll need the Dragon Princes seeing as how the Swordmasters are just as good on the attack as the Dragon Princes, minus the armor. You could probably drop the extra kit from the Noble and the 5 Dragon Princes to beef up the Swordmasters to 7 a piece, and maybe to get a 2nd RBT (Shooting will be your friend).

I think I preferred the previous setup for your Noble. If you keep him Lore of Beasts, it'll be a fun little surprise for your opponents when they dispel all your other magic to find out he's going to get beefed up right before combat. Having both lvl2's on High Magic may not be a bad idea either, since you'll need/want the Magic Defense.

If you can find room somewhere for a second dispel scroll, that'd be ideal - TKs, VC's and DE can all dish out quite a bit of magic even in low levels while being "non-cheesy". 5DD can be really overwhelmed by these armies.

I like the dragon princes and I am glad you were able to get an RBT into the picture. I do not like the LSG for the reasons already listed. I like eagles, a lion chariot, more RBTs and seven wide Sword masters.

The banner of sorcery is a must. I think you know what you will have to add to your list to bring it up to 2250 which is tournment play. Shadow warriors look wonderful all though we do not use them. If you are going magic heavy consider Teclis. He knows all spells from the lore he chooses. No trying to work around spells you did not get. Cast IR on a successful roll and any doubles but 1s. The look on the Vampire General's face when he did drain magic with three dice and rolled 2,2,3 was worth the point cost. His sword is wonderful it is just a real shame that it is not included in our magical item lists. And he gets that special dispell scroll. Read about that one shot item. Last but not least he gets d3 die to his power and dispell pile.

Sure they may call him cheese but you know what they say. That list is full of cheese because I just lost to him.

I feel like this is the bilionth edit, but here it goes...

Also it should be noted I am a sucker for tactical symmetry/redundancy, whatever you want to call it. I like to think my armies are regimented and organized

Level 2 Mage … 185
+ Silver Wand
+ Ring of Fury

Level 2 Mage … 165
+ Seerstaff
+ Dispel Scroll

Noble … 144
+ Dragon Armor
+ Radiant Gem of Hoeth
+ Great Weapon

17 Phoenix Guard … 335
+ Full Command
+ Banner of Sorcery

10 Archers … 120
+ Hawkeye

10 Archers … 120
+ Hawkeye

7 Swordmasters … 105
7 Swordmasters … 105


RBT … 100
RBT … 100

1499

I'm happy that the end result is fluffy, at least mildly competitive (without being over the top), and seems like a proper regimented army.

The archers will each get a mage in them, and in turn, each archer unit will protect a RBT that will deploy in separate fire support units.

The swordmasters will set up on the flanks, and to the back, of the PG, who will have the noble in them. I'm leaning towards making the Noble go Lore of Sapphery so he can cast Drain Magic, leaving one my Seerstaff mage free to get Arrow Attraction/Fury of Khaine, and my Silver Wand one left to pursue Lore of Metal (I'm thinking Rule of Burning Iron will be very nice for sniping.)

So, this is definitely a defensive force. Using arrow attraction to focus archer/RBT fire should prove effective. My only concerns are I don't have eagles or Shadow-Warriors to harass warmachines or march block. I'm also concerned that my Noble will die easily with only a 5+ save. However, if I give him the Gem of Hoeth the best I can do is give him a shield, and a 3+ save in close combat doesn't seem a whole lot better.

I still want to stress that you'll probably want a second Dispel Scroll against your opponents.

Personally, I don't think you need those Hawkeyes - if anything, you'd want musicians instead (you can bet that these guys will be runnin')

Personally, I would consider dropping a few (2-3?) Phoenix Guard and the second unit of Archers (they're really not going to do enough damage unless you're very lucky) for some more Swordmasters, just so that you have more of them and can (sort of) stand to lose a few before combat.

14-15 PG will really be enough to hold and save against most anything assuming you have moderate luck, so the extra couple probably isn't needed and the points would serve better by purchasing more hammer units (in this case, the Swordmasters).

Just make sure to spam Shield of Saphery like crazy .

Considering your billionth list it has come a long way has not it. Your several updates away from your final list at higher points. But that is what these forums are used for. Upgrade for the hawkeye is it worth it. That is a personnal choice. My daughter used it for a while but we needed the points elsewhere. Now instead of 9 die and then 1, with the different bs you get to roll ten at one time.

Generally your army looks very good at this level. HE will always be outnumbered mostly, we just have to get used to that.

Putting the mages in with the archers you have to think about magic range spells. Most spells not all have a range of 24. Therefore you will have to move the archers and mage up. That adds 1 to required to hit for the archers. And the curse of arrow attraction is only 24 inches.

Now when you are getting more points some armies have units which can only be hit by magical weapons. One solution is to upgrade one of the sword masters to bladelord and give him an amulet of light or something like that. Gives the whole unit magical attacks for very little points and the blade lord gets an additional attack. Can challenge and with the ASF might be able to damage your enemys lower level hero.

Jin wrote:I still want to stress that you'll probably want a second Dispel Scroll against your opponents.

Personally, I don't think you need those Hawkeyes - if anything, you'd want musicians instead (you can bet that these guys will be runnin')

Personally, I would consider dropping a few (2-3?) Phoenix Guard and the second unit of Archers (they're really not going to do enough damage unless you're very lucky) for some more Swordmasters, just so that you have more of them and can (sort of) stand to lose a few before combat.

14-15 PG will really be enough to hold and save against most anything assuming you have moderate luck, so the extra couple probably isn't needed and the points would serve better by purchasing more hammer units (in this case, the Swordmasters).

Just make sure to spam Shield of Saphery like crazy .

The Hawkeyes were point fillers. Would you add more swordmasters in the form of beefing the units up, or adding a new unit of 7?

Also, where would you fit the second dispel scroll in? My heroes have 50/50/45 pts right now.

I'd beef up current units a bit. Though you could go for some more tactical flexibility and get an extra unit.

If anything, to get a second dispel scroll, you could get rid of the Seerstaff. It's not a bad item, but I find that I don't mind rolling the lower spells on High Magic users anyways, and Shield of Saphery is always default-able - and convenient since you'll probably want to be using it as much as possible. This is purely preference, though. You may be ok with the 5DD you have, though.