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I'm suffering from terminal indecision here...I want to have a strong scout presence in my SM army - they are a troop choice, and can both hold objectives and sneak up to contest them. They are cheaper and offer some price relief to sticker-shocked "new SM players" like me. I plan to have 30 available for my force altogether. I just can't seem to make up my mind how to model them, a decision I'll need to make before I assemble them. Part of the problem is their variability - on the one hand, they can control a friendly objective, in which case a small unit with sniper rifles and heavy bolter would be best - sit on objective on back part of board, sniping away at the enemy. But arm them with shotguns or combat blades and you get nice infiltrate / assault troops.

I was leaning towards arming ten with shotgun, ten with sniper rilfe/hvy bolter, and ten with combat blade. The SM shotgun has the same S and rate of fire at 12" as the Bg, but allows you to assault. The Combat Blade doubles your A and you get the pistol shot going in. All this seems to more than make up for the nice variability of the boltgun. For squads that sit back and hold objectives, sniper rifles with a hvy bolter to offer long-range fire support and harrassment up to 36".

I was going to have three sergeants with power weapon, melta bombs, and at least one with teleport homer, maybe two.

Any thoughts from experienced SM players would be appreciated.

You pretty much don't need help, lol. Everything you said is perfectly acceptable and playable.

Good thinking.

I really see no value in anything besides the sniper rifles (and missile launcher).
Anything else can be done better by someone else.
Sniper rifles are unique to the scouts.

With that many scouts you're going to seriously want to consider going combat blades/bolt pistol. Scouts are relatively cheap for objective humping, but 30 means you're throwing down a sizeable reserve force.

I'd run one squad with Telion, Heavy Bolter, Snipers and camo, combat squadded for objective humping.

The others I'd run with combat blades and bolt pistols, infiltrating or out-flanking onto opponent objectives.

Let's face it: sniper scouts aren't very good. BS3 models wounding half the time means you're putting out 2.5 wounds a turn, before cover/armor/invuln saves. Typically that means you're averaging 1.25 dead models a turn, which is terrible for any sort of firebase. If all 30 Scouts dumped 30 shots into a Tac squad every turn for 6 turns, you'll kill around 7 models. Wooo. I view snipers as the means by which an objective humping unit is made not useless, not as an integral addition to my force.

S4/T4/I4 models with a 4+ save, frags, and 2 CCWs, on the other hand, are pretty good in the assault. A ten man scout squad should be able to rip through a Tac squad or any other baseline shooty unit very well. The cheap points investment means that your opponent has to fend off 80% of your army while still watching his back for 20 Super Kill Guys storming his objectives and heavy weapon positions. Use your Scouts like an Eldar player would use Striking Scorpions and I think you'll find you get a much better return.

Bolt pistol and ccw. Just because it makes them look cool. Plus, if you plan on having them aggresivly taking objectives they are gonna need as much help to take them when facing large mobs or tougher opponents.

Clams, did you take into account pinning and rending? Those are very important.

I was toying with the idea of scouts in a storm armed with shotguns. Not sure if it's a viable force or not, but with the proliferation of coversaves the lack of ap doesn't seem to hurt so bad anymore. Especially if you arm the storm with a H. Flamer.

They do suck for damaging enemy marines or other troop but wraithlords and carnifexes will not like taking an average of 2.5 wounds from a squad of scouts half way across the board. Especially if you get a magic rend.

Personnally, go shotgun heavy with a mix of say 6 shotguns to 4 with CCW. Buckshot will weaken your target and CCW extra attacks will take things out.

They aren't top of the line CC units but with the teleport homers.... well 10 termies can make a whimpy looking scout assault into a real pain.

Hmmm, good points all around.

On the other hand, a heavy bolter, Telion and sniper rifles (rending and pinning) could easily justify their points plus holding an objective is what victory is all about, right? I think the key is to have the Hvy Bolter. Actually, I could take or leave Telion back there, but he's a really nice model, I just wanted to paint him up.

Interesting, no votes for the shotguns. I think with a full squad shooting 20 S4 shots, with B3 you'll get ten hits, T4 means 5 wounds, then there's armor saves. Seems like you'll probably take out 2-3 of the enemy, then charge with 2A/scout, would be OK. But yes, on the following turns with 1A things could decline. On the other hand, shotguns can also let you put some nasty hits in on people who don't want to get too close, perhaps weaken them before assaulting. I realize the boltpistol has the same stats with Assault 1, and gives you twice the attacks all the time, it's just a fine line to decide. Since I've plenty of them, perhaps I'll just do ten with shotguns for variety.

Pinning is a nice side effect of sniper rifles but it's not something to base 350 points' worth of troops around. MCs, Fearless, Ld9+, and simply having so many squads that losing one for a turn doesn't matter, make pinning a minor concern, at best.

Rending makes snipers slightly more useful against MCs, which is what they should be shooting at anyhow, but unless you're playing Nidzilla nonstop all the time, 350 points' worth of dudes (more with Tellion) is better spent doing something other than putting 3 wounds a turn on a squad (2 wounds if they have cover).

Or the 36" range. Or h.bolter blast template meaning a good few models in that tac squad will generally get 2+ wounding hits on em.

3 squads. 1 10man with telion, all snipers & a rocket launcher. Two more 5man teams with a h.bolters. 360pts worth of troops. Respectable.

Otherwise- how about a 5man team with a sgt power sword, ccw's & a landspeeder storm. Making good use of your WS4 dude & got some cool mobility & some cool rules.

I think you're better off just not getting the scouts man. I mean, a small unit with sniper rifles and Telion is cool for objective grabbing and taking out PF sergeants or stuff like that. But they aren't really good at anything (not even CC) to justify taking them over Tacs, who get free heavy weapons and transports. And they aren't any more expensive in price considering AoBR and that the scout boxes have only 5 Scouts.

Prophet of Dakka wrote:I think you're better off just not getting the scouts man. I mean, a small unit with sniper rifles and Telion is cool for objective grabbing and taking out PF sergeants or stuff like that. But they aren't really good at anything (not even CC) to justify taking them over Tacs, who get free heavy weapons and transports. And they aren't any more expensive in price considering AoBR and that the scout boxes have only 5 Scouts.

Oh, good point, it's not about the money cost. I have all tac and T squads from AoBR, but actually the scouts are Void 1.1 plastics, which were less than $1/fig. Always wanted to use them fore something, and they just happen to have the perfect gear and look for SM Scouts, a happy coincidence. Since my FLGS has VOID, I won't get any flack about using them - altho I could care less, really, and actually only a microcopic number of people could even tell the difference anyway.

But it sounds like a squad with Telion and snipers, then perhaps two squads with either a mix of shotguns / pistol-ccw, or entirely of each choice. Either way, it won't matter for the modelling part, which is what I'm working on now. While it does seem as tho they're 'weak SM', they're not much weaker, they save points, and Infiltrate/Scout give them some abilities to add tactical fliexibility to the battle. And as someone said above, they can always call in my many termies to make an assault far more nasty.

Besides, they fit the fluff of my SM army. I'm founding a chapter, one of the lost chapters from the "Cursed 21st" Founding. They're short on armor, and they're novitiates have to earn it to get it. ie kill someone in it. Just plain fun.

Am I the only one who thinks Telion + Missile Launcher is a great way to add some very accurate anti-tank power? It's a thought, if you run into a lot of tank heavy armies.

Personally, I find the best use of scout models is as initiates in a BT force....that is one place that they really shine They even still get real SM stats, as well as the ability to be throw-aways to keep your real BTs alive!

In a SM force, I only like 1-2 small units with sniper rifles and cloaks to hang onto objectives and put the hurt on specific threats (MCs, etc.). Here, they shine even more with Telion.

Surprised no one's suggested this yet, but combat scouts combined with Shrike in the army makes them kind of nasty. Sure, they're WS3, so the opponent will hit them easier, but still S4 and three attacks on the charge is pretty solid. Could even give the Sergeant a combi-weapon to help out the anti-tank or anti-armor.

I ran 4 with shotguns & a combi Melta in a Land Speeder Storm for a while and in Conquest NW. They did alright, and the 24 inch move for objective grab wasn't too bad. However, for the 135+ points they cost I could do better.

Scout Snipers with a heavy bolter & camo cloaks have proven to be much better. Not only do they get a 3+ cover save (2+ if there is any ruins in my deployment zone thanks to my thunderfire) but they can wound just about anything on the table. Thanks to rending on the rifiles the snipers have caused many a wound on wraithlords. Toughness 8? Who cares? The hellfire shell from the Heavy bolter can also cause problems for a deepstriking squad who doesn't run.

I've fielded the Sniper Scouts both with & without Telion. However, the more i field him the less return on investment I've seen from him. Of course, I've been rolling horribly on my wound rolls for him, but the 50 points could be spent elsewhere in my army. I would also never field Telion with a missile launcher, that is 60 points for a BS6 missile launcher, besides, what are your scouts doing firing at tanks?

Because of the decrease in BS I don't really see a reason to field scouts with anything other then the sniper rifiles unless you are throwing them into a land raider or a Land Speeder Storm to make it a scoring transport.

My rule, 1 unit of scouts, 2 at most.

Agreed with that. As for telions & his rocket launcher support.. what is the math-hamner of this assault 2 stalker-pattern bolter hitting & rending? 11-13 penetration then!

Sniper rifles can also take the heat of from the rest of the army, this may serverly reduce thier life exspectancey but @ 75-85pt/squad thats not bad! 2+ cover saves are just brutal. They dont die.

Meh, I've stuck with the missile launcher from 4th ed. as I don't have the bits anymore to put a heavy bolter in the squad so I'm just making due with what I have. A strength 8 with BS 6 can come in handy as does a strength 4 blast template against greentide orks armies and having Telion put his two shots into Nobs leading ork boys.

tzeentchling wrote:Surprised no one's suggested this yet, but combat scouts combined with Shrike in the army makes them kind of nasty. Sure, they're WS3, so the opponent will hit them easier, but still S4 and three attacks on the charge is pretty solid. Could even give the Sergeant a combi-weapon to help out the anti-tank or anti-armor.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that a squad of ten assaulting with 3A = 15 hits (usually). Against T3 it means 10 wounds, and T4 it means 7.5, both pretty respectible outcomes and against most armies Save will mean 3-7 casualties, a score that's pretty tough to win combat on. And that's not throwing in the 15-point Sgt with A4 + PW, easily worth another kill or two. With 10 bolt pistol shots before the assault and frag grenades to negate cover, plus scouts/infiltrate to get your there, plus scoring, I think it's a very very respectible way to spend 160 pts.

Or am I missing something...