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I know what iam looking for in an army. - Uber magic phase, possible some strong. I dont want a gunline of any kind.
Explain why you think that army is good in magic and other phases in the game.

Also will this kind of army be fun for both the player and opponent???

Boy oh boy isn't that ever true. I used to play lots of Warhammer, then I moved and ended up selling just about all of my armies, Now I really Really want to get backinto it, but I can't decide on which army really fits my playstyle. I know I don't want another "stinker" that I can barely squeze wins out of. I want fast hard troops with good magic(or protection) and reasonable chances of beating top tier armies.

I think that vampire counts can be kitted out to deal out some terrific spells, not being super big but none the less utter goodness (healing d6 wounds for a 4+ casting spell).
They are not the strongest of armies in the core, but with a body full of grave guard that can come back, they can be fun and effective.
They, as you may have heard, are a strong tourney army at the moment, but are so fun to play against that it's also good for friendly games, it just depends on what you take.

if you want uber magic go for either VC or lizards.
both have alot of magic.
a slaan gets a half decent unit, and is one of the best models in the magic phase.

Oh yes the new slann do have some cool magic, if you want more little spells, using lots of dice go for vamps. If you want more big spells go with the slann.
The new lizards also have a couple of rock hard units.
Both seem good in the magic phase and have their variety of strong units. None have gun, so both are good viable options.

There's lots of armies that can have very effective magic phases. The problem with magic is that it's a very high risk:high reward route to take. That being said, High Elves and Dark Elves can both have very power magic phases and are both finesse style armies that can be highly mobile and lethal. Skaven can have a ridiculous magic phase, but lack any real "hit them where it hurts" units. They depend largely on static combat resolution through large blocks of infantry that fill most of the battle line. Lizardmen and Vampire Counts both can have very power magic phases. Tzeentch Chaos Daemon armies, from what I understand can be ridiculously powerful in the magic phase as well. Almost any army can take a lvl 4 wizard for a lord choice and back him up with 2-3 lvl 2 wizard heroes and have a sickeningly powerful magic phase.

Lizard men are the newest army if you go by book release. So a lot of stuff is coming out for them right now.

Slaan can sit in a temple guard unit and cast magic. They can also cast through skink priests (if you give them the ability).

VC are solid and do well overall But can get defeated real easy in certain situations.

Tzeentch Daemons have lots of magic but terrible close combat skills.

Dark Elves have some very neat combinations that can make them dangerous

High Elves are very solid without being to overpowering.

Depending on what you want or what style of magic (offensive / deffensive/ balanced) you want to use it can make a difference.

I was thinking about Tzeentch Daemons , Lizardmen , and Dark Elves. I dont know any thing about the deamons type of play but I do know I dont like the Nurgle
type of armys. I know how Lizardmen play ,but not so sure on magic. If you could help with Dark Elves info pleas go ahead( Are dark elves still heavy on metal units? )

Explain the type of magic each army can wield, and get some links if possible .


Thank you

Lizzies can be nasty magic-wise. able to throw down 13 (Yes, 13) power dice in 1 phase (with 10 dispel dice in your opponents before Slann disciplines or magic items, plus are able to drop the casting DC of all spells in one lore by 3. Problem is, that costs 1295 points plain, so there won't be much room for much other than your 3 core units and Magic items (Probably enough for some temple gaurd, if you go the Skink route.
That being said, here is a sample of cool extras that can be added:
-Each spell cast by your slann can receive 1 extra power dice.
-Slann may know all the spells in it's chosen lore
-Option to re-roll misfire results by the Slann
-Variety of Bound Spells
-may force an enemy wizard to roll on the miscast table insted of one of your wizards.

Daemons:

Nurgle have the ability to get bonus abilities because of Epidimeus. But if you eliminate him or have flaming equipment you can deal with them.

Tzeentch: At 2000 points I fielded a LOC +2 Heralds+ 3 Screamers+ 10 Flamers (2x5) and 10 Horrors+12Horrors+19Horrors

This gave me 4+2+2+2+1+1+2=14PD and 9DD.

Heralds had Master of Sorcery So LOC had all tzeentch spells and each Herald had all the spells in any of the 8 BRB Magic Lores.

Horror units have spells assigned as per number of horrors in unit 0-5 none, 6-15 spell1 (LVL1Mage), 15-25 spell 3(LVL2Mage), 26-35 Spell5 (LVL3Mage) and 35+ Spell6 (LVL4Mage)

Tzeentch spell have 3 magic missile type but random number of hits and random strength. SPell 6 creates new horror per 3 wounds. One radius bomb that even hit people in close combat a spell of stealing and a boon to get you extra power dice.

2 of the Magic Missile spells are flaming.

All tzeentch have flaming attacks and Heralds confer 4+ ward save to horror units.

Very little in the way of armour saves.

Screamers fly over targets and do 1 hit to each unit they fly over.

Flamers shoot d6 shots per shooting phase but are weak in close combat.

Last year at Canadian Grand Tournament I was in the middle of the pack with this army. Biggest problems was bad rolling and I had only been playing for 9 months.

If you have larger horror units 26+ you get the good spells. Below that you have ok spells. But horrors are not that great in combat. No armour save and a 4+ with Herald. But herald will get targeted quick.

I stand corrected in my earlier statement that the EotG can lower a lores DC by 3. It can only lower it by one point per lore (Guess Ward Saves will have to be generated).

Daemons.

Thier magic lists are insanely good.
They have great combat units.
You can have heaps of magic.
Standard of sundering shuts magic phases down.
Flamers and a couple of breath weapons from nurgle are your only shooting.

To be different, I suggest tomb kings. Thats right, Tomb kings. they have a great magic phase, especially in a choir list (3 liche priests = liche choir - name comes from them just saying incantations all the time)

Plus, they have alot of hitting power in the form of chariot units, characters, and tomb scorpions, plus the most accuarate bow fire in the game. Add to that a catapult that shoots FLAMING SKULLS OF DEATH, and you've got yourself one cool army.


-----------

Also, chaos warrior would be cool.

OI! de'res only wun buncha ladz dats da best!

Orcs and Goblins

I find Animosty, in one word, Hilarious

also, grab about 2-3 shamans, one of my 2 favorites preferred (ie. orc/NightGobbo) Grab lotsa power dice
pray to generate Gork's Warpath (at one point, gork stomped on four units, slipped on my unit of orcs, which fled, causing ALL my units to rout)

next, field some boyz. It don't matter 'ow many.

have some serious fun out dere!

zely wrote:I was thinking about Tzeentch Daemons , Lizardmen , and Dark Elves. I dont know any thing about the deamons type of play but I do know I dont like the Nurgle
type of armys. I know how Lizardmen play ,but not so sure on magic. If you could help with Dark Elves info pleas go ahead( Are dark elves still heavy on metal units? )

Explain the type of magic each army can wield, and get some links if possible .


Thank you

Dark elves have the ability to do very well in all phases of the game. Unlike many armies, they can bring a balanced list that excels in all phases of the game. They don't have to overload one aspect of the game to get a large enough advantage to make it worth doing so. (like a gunline army, or a 3-4 mage army, horde of cheap but crappy guys). It seems to me that everything in the book is cheaper than it should be, so you can have good numbers, while still having a killing punch. Almost everything in the book has hatred, so even the lowly warrior has a good chance of killing things in combat,

Their wizards have a spell that makes more power dice, and they can throw any number of dice at a spell regardless of caster level. They also have a sacrificial dagger that lets you roll an additional dice at the cost of killing a guy in the unit. This means that a level 4 wizard, who will know 5 spells, can throw ton of dice in 1 turn. (5 from dagger, 4 from lvl 4, 2 from army, up to 4 from power of darkness) This doesn't even include power stones which you might have. You don't have to go overboard like that, but with such magic concentrated, you can usually out magic an army with 1 lvl 4, and a lvl 2. Some armies won't even be able to stop the single lvl 4. This frees up points, compared to other armies, to buy some of the other good things that DE bring. DE have great shooting, and some of their monster and melee units are top tier. Hydras, black guard, and cold one knights are very good.

As for the availability of plastics in the DE range: Warriors (spears or xbows) cold one knights, and corsairs are plastic. The rest of the range is still metal. Most of the units that you want in metal are just single charecters, monsters, or very small elite units. The cost of building a Good DE army isn't that bad, but its not going to be a cheap army like buying ogres is. They are cheaper to buy than Tzeentch Daemons (no plastic), but more expensive than lizardmen. (lots of plastic)

Daemons, for obvious reasons. They can make armies with 7-8 dispel dice, MR2-3 nearly all around on top of that, 9-12 power dice and knowing all spells from any lore, while also simultaneously having basically the best heavy cavalry in the game, the best combat characters in the game by far, and the most utility overall. When it's so obvious that Daemons of Chaos is the best army in Warhammer, why would a power gamer choose anything else? If the best armies in Warhammer would be broken into and ranked by actual army lists/types and not army books, DoC would occupy top5 all by themselves.

Therion wrote:Daemons, for obvious reasons. They can make armies with 7-8 dispel dice, MR2-3 nearly all around on top of that, 9-12 power dice and knowing all spells from any lore, while also simultaneously having basically the best heavy cavalry in the game, the best combat characters in the game by far, and the most utility overall. When it's so obvious that Daemons of Chaos is the best army in Warhammer, why would a power gamer choose anything else? If the best armies in Warhammer would be broken into and ranked by actual army lists/types and not army books, DoC would occupy top5 all by themselves.

Sadly he isn't that far off the mark. There are armies that beat those lists, but they are few and far between, and is part of the reason why DE and VC are considered top tier.

There are armies that beat those lists

That doesn't necessarily make them better army lists. For example a magic heavy VC army with all the tools and lots of Zombies (in the hands of a decent player) will be able to beat or draw against nearly all of the DoC lists, but will struggle a lot more than the DoC do against many other lists. I'm not saying VC are weak by any margin, but that tournament success often depends on how many massacre victories you can rack up from 'easier' opponents.

ok I've come to one disision. Price of modles dosent mater. I dont like DoC so theire out. So Ive come between 2armies.
1.VC
2.Skaven

I think I have a secret love for hoard armies. And I heard they both got good magic.
If you can give links about each army and tactics, I would be pleased.

Few questions

1.are VC able to compete in tornys?
2. what is the learining curve for VC?
3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
4. what are pupular builds.
5.what makes VC win?
6.tell me about theire magic phase

a1.are Skaven able to compete in tornys?
a2. what is the learining curve for Skaven?
a3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
a4. what are pupular builds.
a5.what makes Skaven win?
a6.tell me about theire magic phase

( ok I know the force orginization chart for 40k but how is it for WHFB.( Like you can have 2 HQs and six troops and so on)

thank you

zely wrote:ok I've come to one disision. Price of modles dosent mater. I dont like DoC so theire out. So Ive come between 2armies.
1.VC
2.Skaven

I think I have a secret love for hoard armies. And I heard they both got good magic.
If you can give links about each army and tactics, I would be pleased.

Few questions

1.are VC able to compete in tornys?
2. what is the learining curve for VC?
3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
4. what are pupular builds.
5.what makes VC win?
6.tell me about theire magic phase

a1.are Skaven able to compete in tornys?
a2. what is the learining curve for Skaven?
a3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
a4. what are pupular builds.
a5.what makes Skaven win?
a6.tell me about theire magic phase

( ok I know the force orginization chart for 40k but how is it for WHFB.( Like you can have 2 HQs and six troops and so on)

thank you

My only experience with VC is playing against them. VC perform well in a tourney setting, putting up good numbers in larger events. From what i hear they are easy to learn, because undead do exactly what you want them to, so no worries about panic. Their magic is also new player friendly. I have had fun playing against them in casual games, but keep in mind a casual VC list is much different than a tourney list. I've personally seen two types of VC. There are more, but I've only played vs these two: Number one is an army that abuses the powerful ability to spam the creation of new models, as in raising the number of models in a existing unit, or making new units in game. The other is one focused on the powerful cav units that VC have. VC win alot of games because they cause fear as an army, don't flee, bring lots of static combat resolution (and make more), and the actual Vampires and their Knights kill most things they touch in combat. As for their magic phase, They spam lots of the spell that makes more guys, and the spell that give a magic move (this includes a chance to charge in the magic phase).

I've not had much experience with skaven, the only local player who owns them doesn't actually play much.

i don´t know much about VC but i do have skaven

a1.are Skaven able to compete in tornys?
i think that depends largely on you and how you play. probably not as competitive as VC from what i´ve seen on this forum

a2. what is the learning curve for Skaven?
it´s not too bad. to play well it will take a while though (as with all armies though)

a3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
i think they are

a4. what are pupular builds.
i like having a screaming bell and grey seer along with 2 warlock engineers (13 power dice). i tend to end up with a bit less than 200 models. many people go for the hoard army though with 300/400+ models.
also if you take tunneling teams (i love em) make sure you have 6 in the unit and a black skaven (13 attacks total). i like 2 teams

a5.what makes Skaven win?
static rank bonus´. i think it is really the slaves though (seriously). people have to utalise more points than they are worth to eliminate them as they are so cheap. no other unit for 50 points will be able to beat them. they are unable to ignore them as if that happens they end up with a 3 rank, outnumbering unit in their flank

a6.tell me about their magic phase
plauge is a phenominal spell. if you get it focus on getting it off. warplightning is the main spell. does heaps of damage when it happens. general rule with it though is 2 dice for 5+, 3 dice for 9+. death frenzy is cool on a unit of slaves as well. 15 attacks is going to hurt most people and hey who cares if a few of them die each turn

First off, let me just say that of the two choices, VC are far, far more powerful. But more important than that, they are versatile and diverse.

Skaven are a very odd army. They have cheap, but mostly reliable troops, strong shooting, and offensive magic (mostly magic missile based). But given these strengths, they have a lot of limitations:

No Cavalry
Generally Crap LD on things not in blocks, or not within 12" of their general
Very little in the way of high strength units that can actually "kill" things in combat, especially things with armor.
If someone gets cheap units of fliers or tunnelers into your shooting units (read, not that hard to do), it's very easy for you to lose the game.

Please realize this about Skaven: They're a 6th Ed book, that currently has one very limited build "that works" and their useful number of unit choices can be had on one hand in a book with many entries. They are do for a re-write within the next year to two years and it is likely things that are good now will be changed drastically because they could be regarded as "too good" by many.

The main point about Skaven is that thematically they will always be an infantry army. They have some skirmishers and some Ogre-Class infantry (the worst of its kind in the game, currently), but they will never have Cavalry, or lots of high strength models in the list. They will have shooting.

Compare this to VC, who are one of the most powerful armies in WHFB currently, that have a variety of army builds which include:

Summoning Horde
Death Star Unit
Heavy Cavalry/Combat army (ie. wins by active combat resolution/killing things instead of static)

Nearly every army will be Magic Heavy in a VC army, no matter what you do. Now the downside is that they have no real shooting, though in comparison to other armies, they could care less about shooting casualties. Given that Warhammer is about movement first and foremost, I'd recommend VC as a more engaging army to play.

The reason I say this is important is that with VC you can build one list and over time play a completely different kind of army (low model count combat army vs. Summon Horde list). Compared to Skaven who will almost always have a very high model count infantry based army, rather than a balanced force or one that goes heavily in one kind of direction.

zely wrote:
Few questions

1.are VC able to compete in tornys?
2. what is the learining curve for VC?
3.are they fun and enjoyable in casual play?
4. what are pupular builds.
5.what makes VC win?
6.tell me about theire magic phase

#1) Absolutely yes. They are one of the strongest armies in the game currently.

#2) It can be anything from very little to very hard depending on the build. Some lists are no brainers to play (Deathstar unit armies), other heavy combat armies can be exceptionally challenging. In general, a balanced VC list is very forgiving since your troops will always do what you want them to do and will never run.

#3) They can be enjoyable in casual play if you tone down your magic phase a bit and don't min/max the army.

#4) I spoke of this earlier, but your summoning horde will have upwards of 1000 points in characters and some small units of Skeletons or Ghouls to start the game, who will then get "raised up" on the first two turns to be full units. Extra points in the list will be spent on Bats, Dire Wolves, and Wraiths. Deathstar Lists will have a massive unit of Grave Guard or Black Knights that have the Regeneration Banner (Drakenhoff) on the BSB who goes in the unit, and you have this unkillable unit that will mince up just about anything it touches. Again, core choices are started small and then raised up to size to support the main block. Combat lists will involve heavy use of Black Knights or even Blood Knights if you want to go that route, and you will have more fighting characters or a Lord with combat kit with a little bit of casting thrown in for support.

No matter what you use, you will find that success comes from the magic phase where you will raise units and heal casualties inflicted by the enemy, and get off game-winning magical movement spells.

#5) The ability to heal casualties, raise core units above their starting size of models, and to get a large number of chances at casting magical movement spells. Also, the entire army causes fear and is unbreakable. You don't care about psychology, but other armies do and will lose to you based on that. Your troops will do whatever you want without question. You don't have random dice rolls to make to see if things will work or not (where as Skaven are quite random in this regard).

#6) VC magic is highly powerful and is what drives the army. Most of your casting is done to raise units and move units in the magic phase. There are some magic missile spells or damage spells in the VC magic list, but in general these won't be cast nearly as much as your two main spells for healing and movement.

Vampire counts are heavy magic casters and dont own any ranged weapons at all, vampires and grave guard and the such are relativly strong

According to White Dwarf..

Most Defensive Magic Award- Dwarves
Best offensive Magic Award- Tomb Kings of Khermi
Most Balanced Magic Award- High Elves

I am a Skaven Player so.. Comming from me here is what I have to Say:

Dark Elves: Having Playing Against Them Many Many Times, their Magic is Very Powerful.

Skaven: Most Destructive Magic, but Accept the Fact it Will Backfire.

Lizardmen: Can Choose from any Lore of Magic, So Very Flexible.

Vampire Counts: Not as Good as they Were before, but still they Get to Revive.

There you go.

Pan Fo!

My suggestions for strong magic are

Dark Elves

Daemons

Vampire Counts

(now that's out of the way)

Empire: Lots of good Arcane and Enchanted Items for magical might.

Lizardmen are quite flexible.

Dunno about skaven.

Orcs and goblins DO have 2 lores technically, but animosity is a serious hindrance.

Tomb Kings are also good, I hear.

P.S. Can TK players revive their skeletons?

Cryonicleech wrote:P.S. Can TK players revive their skeletons?

Yes they can resurrect the casualties/ heal damaged constructs, but they cannot raise new units or additional bodies beyond the starting size.

Best offensive Magic Award- Tomb Kings of Khermi

The hell are they smoking?

Well they did raise a thread that was dead for 2 months.

You just have to see that they think HE are balanced and TK are powerful to know that this is either A: and old article or B: GW is as stupid as players think they are. Considering that RAYREGURGITION thinks VC isn't as powerful as it was, and lizards can choose any lore (only the slan, and how many can you take at below 3000?) I wouldn't trust that article reference.

If you want horde, then go VC. However - theyre not that fun if you play tourney style. Its essentially:

1. Vamp lord plus heroes in Grave Guard bunker, directly behind (thus letting them march) with the ability to raise up above initial unit size:

2. Lots of ghouls in many units. Well, not many to start with, but turn two there will be 3 - 4 times as many. Then you do:

3. Vanhels (spam again) into combat, getting flank and fronts. Use helm of commandment to get WS7 ghouls / zombies. win through static and some kills, auto break due to fear.

4. repeat above until you win. Opponent only gets points if you miscast, as a general rule.

Can be a VERY dull army. Other build is the bloodknight deathstar, which is so far from horde you should touch it.

As a newbie don't touch VC. You get stupid ideas that "4-5DD is normal" (well duh, you get casters who do combat as well, although not normally a good idea) and dont learn about panic, overruns, bait and flee and manouvering, as you can Vanhels your way out of trouble. Oh, you also break the Cardinal Rule of spell casting: no repeat attempts. Oh, and on one dice for raising so you dont have to worry about miscasts until you vanhels units. and on +1 to cast.

Lizards:

strong build is slann in TG, 2xEngines (nobody mentioned the unstoppable all units in 2D6" take D6 S4/5 (if undead) hits, no armour save, even in combat? and S6 D6+1 impact hits?) with 5x10 skink skirmishers with poison. Mobile multi shot poison, if anyone gets near you kill them

Da_Viking: You are incorrect - Slaan can ALWAYS cast through skink priests, but only Magic Missiles