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I need some help with my skaven army. I'm definitely new at Warhammer, but I chose the skaven army because I like the look, play-style, and the fact that I'm the only person playing skaven at our local gaming store.
I've fought a few skirmishes over the last month to learn the rules while building up an army. Our local shop is doing 1200 pt games on the weekends this month, so I've built myself the following 1200 put army.

40 slaves (bare bones)
20 clanrats with spears, command group, and ratling gun (no magic attached)
40 plague monks with command group, add hand weapons
5 base rat swarm
1 giant rat pack
2 rat ogres
5 poison globadiers
1 warplock engineer (with blades, pistol, accumulator, and condensor) deployed with the globadiers
1 plague priest (I vary his gear/magic, still trying different things) deployed with the plague monks

Basically, my strategy has been to form two core fighting units. The plague monks on one side of the table, with the slaves broken up on either side to flank whatever they're fighting. The clanrats, rat swarm, rat pack, and ogres all on the other side of the table. Rat swarms kind of lead the way, while the clanrats are behind them, ready to shoot with the ratling gun/flank once the rat swarm is engaged (being 5 bases wide, unbreakable, and not affecting line of sight makes it awesome in front of the clanrats). The rat pack and ogres are on the far side, try to get the to either flank or get in behind the enemy to go for war machines, characters, etc. The glabadiers and engineer are in between both of the two fighting units, casting warp lightening, shooting/throwing globes, to generally harass and weaken the enemy.

This weekend I played four battles against my friend who plays orcs and goblins. His army is generally very goblin heavy, all loaded with fanatics, with one really tough unit of orcs (loaded with general/bsb). He uses a couple goblin units to protect the orcs flanks, and has a unit of spider riders as well that he tries to outflank me with. Finally, he fields a doom diver and sometimes a goblin shaman.

The battles that we've fought, his doom diver consistently has been able to destroy my ratling gun every time before I get a shot off. After that, he uses it to generally weaken my troops. That weapon seems very reliable for greenskin artillery, with its d6 correction roll. I've tried different things to disable it, like casting warp lightening each round, but since it can be used until all 3 crew are killed and the hits are randomized, the only time I've taken it out was getting lucky with my giant rat pack racing in. Still, he had gotten off two successful shots with it first, including killing my ratling gun. We've been pretty evenly matched on maneuvering. Since he is goblin heavy, I don't outnumber him by much in terms of models and we're about equal in terms of number of units. Even if I do outnumber him, between the doom diver and his archers (usually 2 units of goblin archers + the spider riders with bows) he can generally take out one of my units before I ever get in close.

The biggest problem I have is with leadership. Since this is 1200 pts, I can't field a general, the highest leadership I can get is 6 with my plague priest. 3 of our 4 battles have ended in the 3rd or 4th turn because one of my units will lose a combat resolution, usually only by 1 or 2, which is enough penalty on leadership 6 to cause that unit to flee. This causes a chain reaction. In one battle, the first close combat we had was in the 3rd turn, my plague monks actually did more wounds, but lost the CR because of modifiers, broke from combat and fled. This caused both units of slaves to run also. My rat ogres, ratling gun, and giant rat pack had all been shot up by his doom diver and archers, so I was left with pretty much nothing on the table by the 4th turn, even though I'd only lost 3 models from my plague monks in combat. I attempted rallying, failed, they all fled off the table, and I resigned. In another battle, his spider riders flanked my clanrats, which caused them to flee, which caused them to run into other units, and so on, until almost everything I had was running away. The one battle that I managed to not have my units all fleeing due to failed leadership rolls ended a draw, with me having about 120 victory points over him. Also, based on position, if we had gone to round 7, I was ready to charge my last 2 remaining units into his last unit's flank and rear, so I probably would have gotten a very solid victory if the game had continued.

Sorry this is kind of long. I just don't think that my tactics are generally wrong, because when I can actually keep my units in the fight, I do very well. So is there something I should be changing in the build, or am I just missing something? With 6 as my highest leadership, any test I have to make is going to fail over half the time. With any modifiers, it gets worse. I like this army, I've invested a good amount of time and money into them, and the fact that I'm losing isn't the problem. I can learn from a loss. The fact that my army consistently breaks and flees 2D6+1 right off the table before the battle ever really gets going, that isn't fun for me or my opponent.

Any help would be appreciated.

[edit: had 40 slaves, not 80 as originally posted]

ok, a list of ideas to help your list.

re-read the army book a couple times, your forgetting some special rules

get a chieftan, and stick him in the clanrats. and bump them to 24 (you don't need that many slaves - more on this later - and without the extra rank your unit will panic too quickly) that will get you LD 9 with the strength in numbers rule

slaves. that slave block is too big. you only need a unit of 20 for screening purposes. once that big block flee's, its gone for good. what are those numbers for if they flee? turn the unused slaves into clannies.

take the plauge monks and make them a unit of 24 (main unit, priest in here) and a unit of 16 (support - can be used by mainstay rules if you make some of the slaves clannies)

rat ogres are generally useless, though i would use them to flank. i would also take those little rats off the clannie sprue, put them on bases, and make them "giant" rats, as 1 pack is useless except for screening, as it will be wittled down too fast.

split the gloabadiers into two units, 1 of 3 and one of 2.

clannies - sword and shield is better. the spears may give you extra attacks, but HW/shield gives you better armor save, more important for conserving ranks (main thing with horde armies, they like thier ranks)

warplock engineer should fit in a unit of 24 clannies - use them as a "bunker" for him. the pistol is wasted points, get rid of it. give him a dispel scroll and if you have the points storm daemon. that gives you reasonable magic defense and a strong offense.

thats all i have right now, when you re-post your list, i'll comment further. skaven were my first army too. thier hard to get used to, but once you learn the value of combo charges and numbers, you'll get into the groove of things.

Thanks Marcus, that strength in numbers rule is something crucial I overlooked. That will make a big difference in my battles.

I'm going to take your advice and increase my clanrats to two groups of 24, one with a chieftan. I think I've overlooked their usefulness, but with a 4+ armor save (leaving off the spears), and the improved leadership, they'll probably hold out a lot better than I though while letting me move something else in for the flank attack.

I also think I'm going to get rid of my rat swarm. With 5 bases, that unit costs 225 points, making them one of the most expensive units on the table. Their combat abilities aren't worth it. I might just throw one or two bases in for screening.

For magic items, I have about 120 pts I can use. I'm thinking of a couple war banners in my main units (the clanrats and plague monks that have characters in them) to improve CR, and bands of power for my plague priest. With his additional weapon, he'll be getting 4 attacks at WS 5 S8, on top of all the other frenzy attacks. Lastly, maybe storm daemon for my warlock engineer. Alternatively, a storm banner could be very helpful since I have pretty much nothing range at this point and he's been inflicting a lot of pain on me with his archers and doom diver.

Thanks for your help. I'm looking forward to trying some of this out.

I thought the doom diver was only D3" correction.

Anyway, do you need all the warlock's gear?
He's the only wizard in the army, and can only use 3 power dice due to his level and equipment. Dropping the extra dice item gives you more points for magic items. Against orks and gobbos, the 'str 3 hit on an entire unit' scroll should be useful against those gobbos.

40 slaves (bare bones)
20 clanrats with spears, command group, and ratling gun (no magic attached)
40 plague monks with command group, add hand weapons
5 base rat swarm
1 giant rat pack
2 rat ogres
5 poison globadiers
1 warplock engineer (with blades, pistol, accumulator, and condensor) deployed with the globadiers
1 plague priest (I vary his gear/magic, still trying different things) deployed with the plague monks

drop the rat swarms, take a second unit of clan rats (with sword and shield). They are required for the army.
make the slaves into 2x20 slaves
same with plague monks
drop the ratling gun and get another engineer, the gear you have on him is fine (guns are way overpriced at the moment)
drop the rat ogres and possibly the globadieers and get some jezales (if you have them).
That will be a decent army. remember the strength in numbers rule and the fact that you have to have multiple clanrat units if you want any other units to have multiples (i forget the special rule name that says so)

ratticus wrote:Thanks Marcus, that strength in numbers rule is something crucial I overlooked. That will make a big difference in my battles.

I'm going to take your advice and increase my clanrats to two groups of 24, one with a chieftan. I think I've overlooked their usefulness, but with a 4+ armor save (leaving off the spears), and the improved leadership, they'll probably hold out a lot better than I though while letting me move something else in for the flank attack.

I also think I'm going to get rid of my rat swarm. With 5 bases, that unit costs 225 points, making them one of the most expensive units on the table. Their combat abilities aren't worth it. I might just throw one or two bases in for screening.

For magic items, I have about 120 pts I can use. I'm thinking of a couple war banners in my main units (the clanrats and plague monks that have characters in them) to improve CR, and bands of power for my plague priest. With his additional weapon, he'll be getting 4 attacks at WS 5 S8, on top of all the other frenzy attacks. Lastly, maybe storm daemon for my warlock engineer. Alternatively, a storm banner could be very helpful since I have pretty much nothing range at this point and he's been inflicting a lot of pain on me with his archers and doom diver.

Thanks for your help. I'm looking forward to trying some of this out.

your welcome. sword and shield is definatly worth it. the clannies will hold, but you have to counter charge the enemy in the flank to get a win off, and even that isn't garunteed.

don't quote me on this, but i think unit strengh 10 units can contest/capture table quarters. i'd suggest taking a duo of swarm bases and sticking them in a table quarter. the enemy won't notice, and the 1-200 pts they make back will help.

yes two units of clanrats at 25 total size is a definite
2 big units of slaves as well (i´d go for 25). if you have 8 points spare give them a musician. means they rally on 3´s (just funny when it happens) but as they are at 25 you will probably have 3 ranks and outnumbering in combat. the musician means you win ties so they will be able to take out weak units and not just be used as a screen

i would get rid of the plauge monks at the low points. more troops are better. another unit of CR if there are points after other changes suggested.
agree with removing the rat swarm and rat ogres and poison wind globadiers

with your rat packs i would go for 2 units of 2 packs (or 3 packs if you have the points). they are great at flanking and at the larger size also getting rid of fast cav as they are M6.

plauge priest is good. band of power and great weapon/extra hand weapon is an excellent combo. at present there is nothing that has character killing potential or armour negation. if you do that 2 warlock engineers and storm daemon are probably needed to ensure all dispel dice are used before you supprise them with his bands of power. and if they don´t have many dispel dice even better as you will do heaps of damage with the warlock engineers and can take down heavy cav fairly easily as well. two will be able to utalise 6 casting dice each turn as well.

i think ratling guns are exceptional at the small points values so if you have the points put 2 in

i once played two rattlings at 500 pts. it was either murder or explosivley funny.

number 1 rule with skaven, and WHFB as a whole = have fun, laugh a bit. don't fret if one of your units blows up, there's plenty more games where that came from.

In my experience with my skaven, I've realized that if it doesn't have ranks, it doesn't stay on the table long. This means keep your heroes in rank and file units or they're very likely to run off the table along with their unit.
That being said, Globadiers are terrific units to use against any hard target, especially if they can evade being shot to hell. Similarily, jezzails are the bane of heavy cavalry and similar enemies, but will be targeted early. Make sure both either remain hidden from enemy shooting, keep them in cover or within your general's leadership bubble. The leadership won't help much, but it's better than nothing.
Night Runners are good, cheap, throwaway flank protection. Units of 5 with no upgrades running along the sides of your rank and file units also protect the number one asset to your army: the special rule "strength in numbers". If an enemy gets a flanking charge on your unit, you lose both your rank bonus and your leadership bonus. That can cause you to lose a game outright.
Rat Ogres are terrible in the current ruleset. If you ever get them into close combat, they can do some damage, true.. but if they take any fire they are VERY likely to break and start a panic wave that can send multiple units off the table.
Rat Swarms are useful, but their costs are too high for competitive play. They can be used to tie up anything for a turn or so, if you're lucky.
I'd say that multiple minimized 20 rat squads of slaves are very useful, but I'd never use more than 3, and always with no command upgrades. I don't use but 2, for no other reason than I can't force myself to paint another 20 2pt models.
Clanrats are a very solid and necessary portion of your army, always take them in large squads. Minimally, I use 30 rats in a unit with a full command element. Often, I use 35. The more you have in your unit the more you deny your opponent the ability to shoot away your numbers. Numbers, which are vitally important to win combats. Clanrats are best equipped with hand weapon and shield as opposed to spear and shield. In addition to being cheaper, they receive a better armor save in close combat. Clanrat units also make much better units to place engineers into.
Point for point giant rats are very similar to clanrats, but do not benefit from ranks and therefore won't benefit from "strength in numbers". So, keep their units small, if you take them at all.
Plague Monks with extra hand weapons and full command are great for gutting enemy units because they combine above combat ability with static combat resolution. I typically waffle between 24-30 plague monks with a plague priest using a censor. In addition I give them the banner of burning hate. This makes them even more potent in close combat.

themandudeperson wrote:In my experience with my skaven, I've realized that if it doesn't have ranks, it doesn't stay on the table long. This means keep your heroes in rank and file units or they're very likely to run off the table along with their unit.
That being said, Globadiers are terrific units to use against any hard target, especially if they can evade being shot to hell. Similarily, jezzails are the bane of heavy cavalry and similar enemies, but will be targeted early. Make sure both either remain hidden from enemy shooting, keep them in cover or within your general's leadership bubble. The leadership won't help much, but it's better than nothing.
Night Runners are good, cheap, throwaway flank protection. Units of 5 with no upgrades running along the sides of your rank and file units also protect the number one asset to your army: the special rule "strength in numbers". If an enemy gets a flanking charge on your unit, you lose both your rank bonus and your leadership bonus. That can cause you to lose a game outright.
Rat Ogres are terrible in the current ruleset. If you ever get them into close combat, they can do some damage, true.. but if they take any fire they are VERY likely to break and start a panic wave that can send multiple units off the table.
Rat Swarms are useful, but their costs are too high for competitive play. They can be used to tie up anything for a turn or so, if you're lucky.
I'd say that multiple minimized 20 rat squads of slaves are very useful, but I'd never use more than 3, and always with no command upgrades. I don't use but 2, for no other reason than I can't force myself to paint another 20 2pt models.
Clanrats are a very solid and necessary portion of your army, always take them in large squads. Minimally, I use 30 rats in a unit with a full command element. Often, I use 35. The more you have in your unit the more you deny your opponent the ability to shoot away your numbers. Numbers, which are vitally important to win combats. Clanrats are best equipped with hand weapon and shield as opposed to spear and shield. In addition to being cheaper, they receive a better armor save in close combat. Clanrat units also make much better units to place engineers into.
Point for point giant rats are very similar to clanrats, but do not benefit from ranks and therefore won't benefit from "strength in numbers". So, keep their units small, if you take them at all.
Plague Monks with extra hand weapons and full command are great for gutting enemy units because they combine above combat ability with static combat resolution. I typically waffle between 24-30 plague monks with a plague priest using a censor. In addition I give them the banner of burning hate. This makes them even more potent in close combat.

when you say max 3 units of slaves, what points total are you talking about? 1k, 2k? i use 1 for each clanrat unit i have....can get up to 5-6 units sometimes.

typically I use 2 in 2000 pt games. I can see how in large numbers they can be useful, but they never hold their ground when their away from the general and/or battle standard. Also, I rarely have room in my deployment zone to deploy the units I have. Much less if I added another 60 models..
Oh, and I'm also part of that vastly opposed minority that think that stormvermin aren't a bad choice. Sure, they're expensive (9 pts per with shields) but they can be darn hard against shooting by putting an umbranner in the unit. In addition, this unit's effectiveness shoots through the roof if you ever find yourself in a position to cast death frenzy on it. Or you can take a normal battlestandard bearer with skavenbrew. Plus, they look boss compared to clanrats.

i am also part of the stormvermin-FTW minority.

*paw-fives mandudeperson*

Personal preference for me,

skaven slaves are nothing more than just cheap stuff to hold stuff for me to fire my rattling gun into (life is cheap)

And clan rat are nothing more then mainstay unit for me to bring more rattling gun with.

I love rattling guns D:

So do i, but people at tourneys scream CHEESE! and i just snicker.

Ratling guns aren't nearly that effective against shooting armies though. Given the 7th edition ruleset, they can now be targeted separately as an individual unit. I don't care how good you are at making armor saves, there isn't a missile unit out there that can't bring down 1 single wound T3 unit with a 6+ armor save...
Now I will say this: against an opponent who hasn't been taught their lethality, you can sneak them into position and the skaven weapon teams can earn you a huge win. Then, if they have any learning ability whatsoever, it will never work against them again.
Back on the subject of slaves, I use them to tie up units for flank charges that see them off the table due to the combined combat resolution of a clanrat unit and a slave unit that typically makes it impossible for an enemy unit to do anything but lose combat by 3 or more points.
Also, a fun thing to do is to use a warplightning cannon once the slaves are stuck in. Move it into position to fire through the enemy flank. Nothing like taking 5 knights out with one good shot from a warplightning cannon to totally shift the game in your favor. Warplightning cannons also make a very good "hey look at me" unit, as they're T5 with a 4+ ward save, so they're very resilient to enemy fire AND they can potentially lay a 48" Strength 10 beam of death across the table. If you take them though, make sure to take two, because (as with many skaven units) you need the redundancy to make them effective.

i hate to dissapoint, but they may be reslient, but one good infernal gateway and that cannon is poofed.

lord marcus wrote: i hate to dissapoint, but they may be reslient, but one good infernal gateway and that cannon is poofed.

Uhm.. yeah, anything that gets hit with that is killed. That's like saying "no, I refuse to take a warplightning cannon because my opponent may roll a 6 for one of his spells, then might successfully cast a spell that needs a +15 without miscasting and then roll an 11-12 on 2d6 against my 100 pt cannon"

You don't NOT field something that cheap because of some HIGHLY situational spell that will rarely work out. Hell.. I'm more worried about the fact that warplightning cannons must auto flee as a charge reaction than I am about playing some cheese head tzeentch list. In fact, I'd almost rather it blast my warplightning cannon as opposed to one of my clanrat units with a hero in it which costs over double that. I could understand that argument against say.. Karl Franz or something, but not against a 100 pt "hey, look at me" unit.