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Tucked away in this topic... http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185006 ...is an interesting gray area of the rules. As noted by one of the forum members ( his post here... http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3325270#post3325270 ) the rules in 4th Edition made it clear that a Deep Strike model could not be placed ( for determining the point of arrival ) within one inch of an enemy model. The rule for Deep Strike units in 5th Edition however states to place the model anywhere on the table ( it does not however state place the model on the table or on top of any models - permissive rule consideration ).

Now I read this in the RAW and literal sense: the model has to be placed on the table. However you'll notice in the thread that some believe it is legal to place the DS model on top of other models - of course this could be disastrous for most units in the game if a "hit" is scored on the scatter roll, but it seems like an attempt to tap into a grey area by a Necron player using the Monoliths unique rule for when it arrives via Deep Strike.

Personally, if this was a legal tactic I think you'd have some upset players when someone places a Monolith ( or any other model for that matter ) on top of something that they took the time to build, paint, etc... I know I would.

So what do you think ( opinion ) - poll above ?

-- Should models be placed on top of each other for determining an arrival point or should they follow the normal one inch proximity rule ?

As far as I see it, you can place it where ever you want, even on top of other models, causing a Mishap should you roll a hit.

of Course the Monolith has that special rule, but It was written for 3rd ed where you couldn't do that. Now you can, it is legal, wile perhaps breaking the RaI

toxic_wisdom wrote:
Personally, if this was a legal tactic I think you'd have some upset players when someone places a Monolith ( or any other model for that matter ) on top of something that they took the time to build, paint, etc... I know I would.

I don't mind what people do, but if they plunk down a model on top of my stuff without asking or doing in a way to damage my models, there will be words!

Very annoying. Same goes with the tape measure end dinging down on my stuff. Do people have a brain? ****rant over****

I'm going to repost my opinion that I sent to toxic_wisdom earlier via PM:

When it comes to deep striking directly onto enemy models, I personally think the rules allow you to do so, although it is only really beneficial to do so with a Monolith.

The rules do state that you put the target Deep Strike model "anywhere on the table".

This definition can definitely be interpreted either literally (on the physical table) or instead as an area of acceptable placement (anywhere within the 4x6' area that makes up the gaming table). I've always resisted the idea of the first interpretation in similar rules discussions because it quickly fails under scrutiny. What if you're playing your game on a matt over the tabletop? Does placing a model on this matt still count as "on the table", and if so why? Does placing a model on a hill or other terrain feature count as placing a model "on the table", and if so why?

Essentially, you can't play by that first literal interpretation without making up further rules about what qualifies as "on the table" and what doesn't. Playing with the second interpretation (that the "table" simply represents the gaming area), doesn't.


And to go a bit further, No one would ever advocate that even if you're allowed to choose your target over an existing model you would actually set the model down onto someone else's models, that's just silly. You just point out that your model is "landing" exactly where that other model is right now.

yakface wrote:"...And to go a bit further, No one would ever advocate that even if you're allowed to choose your target over an existing model you would actually set the model down onto someone else's models, that's just silly. You just point out that your model is "landing" exactly where that other model is right now..."

LOL ! But you just know that there are some gamers out there that would actually attempt it... Slightly off topic - I watched a game where a player used his Land Raider to Tank Shock an enemy infantry unit: actually moving the LR through the unit and contacting the opponent's models ( the look on the player's face was a priceless, and of course a few comments ( not nice ) were given.

From page 11 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull)... A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases –this is only possible in an assault during the Assaultphase. To keep this distinction clear, amodel may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

So how would you say this passage affects your view that you can Deep Strike on top of an enemy unit?

It doesn't affect it at all, because you don't place the model down actually on the table until the Deep Strike is resolved. The bit in the deep strike rules (p95) about putting a model down as the centre is just to act as a placemarker for where the centre model will land should it be a hit or a scatter.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:It doesn't affect it at all, because you don't place the model down actually on the table until the Deep Strike is resolved. The bit in the deep strike rules (p95) about putting a model down as the centre is just to act as a placemarker for where the centre model will land should it be a hit or a scatter.

But you are required to actually place the DS model on the table.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:The bit in the deep strike rules (p95) about putting a model down as the centre is just to act as a placemarker for where the centre model will land should it be a hit or a scatter.

And exactly where do the rules say that the model is not actually a model and is just a placemarker? They don't. That's just an assumption on your part that's not supported by the rules. It literally says that you place a model from the unit, and you can't voluntarily place a model within 1" of the enemy except when assaulting.

Ghaz wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:The bit in the deep strike rules (p95) about putting a model down as the centre is just to act as a placemarker for where the centre model will land should it be a hit or a scatter.

And exactly where do the rules say that the model is not actually a model and is just a placemarker? They don't. That's just an assumption on your part that's not supported by the rules. It literally says that you place a model from the unit, and you can't voluntarily place a model within 1" of the enemy except when assaulting.

Not true. The only prohibition is on moving within 1" of an enemy model. It's perfectly legal to place the model, because deep strike is not movement, anywhere on the board including right next to an enemy model.

Ghaz wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:The bit in the deep strike rules (p95) about putting a model down as the centre is just to act as a placemarker for where the centre model will land should it be a hit or a scatter.

And exactly where do the rules say that the model is not actually a model and is just a placemarker? They don't. That's just an assumption on your part that's not supported by the rules. It literally says that you place a model from the unit, and you can't voluntarily place a model within 1" of the enemy except when assaulting.

You are right, it doesn't. But if you don't play that the initial placement and subsequent scatter are representational do you stop this "move" (pg 95 does say the scattering model "moves") when it would come within 1" of an enemy model?

If you want to play that way, then I would agree with you. But most people I've seen resolve the whole scatter distance, allowing the target model to end up over friendly models, within 1" of enemy models, etc. In this case, we are effectively playing that the target model's position is representational which is why I do believe placing the model over an enemy model is indeed allowed.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:"...Not true. The only prohibition is on moving within 1" of an enemy model. It's perfectly legal to place the model, because deep strike is not movement, anywhere on the board including right next to an enemy model..."

A model arriving via DS doesn't count as moving ?

yakface wrote:You are right, it doesn't. But if you don't play that the initial placement and subsequent scatter are representational do you stop this "move" (pg 95 does say the scattering model "moves") when it would come within 1" of an enemy model?

As I stated, you can't voluntarily come within 1" of an enemy except when assaulting. The scatter is compulsory movement and thus takes precedence and specifically allows them to move over/be placed on top of enemy models.

In support of NOT allowing models to be placed on top of other models:

-- Deep Strike units arrive in the movement phase ( pg 94 - 95 )
-- Deep Strike units count as having moved in the movement phase ( pg 95 )
-- A model may not through or into another model's space ( pg 11 )
-- A model may not move within one inch of an enemy model unless assaulting ( pg 11 )

Now more specific to the Monolith:

-- Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed ( pg 95 )
-- The Liths unique rule DOES explain how to handle DS IF it lands in areas occupied by other models
-- The Liths unique rule DOES NOT grant an exception to the one inch proximity rule

slightly off topic - this bit I find interesting: vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed

Does this rule now prevent the Monolith from firing either of its weapons - GFPs or Particle Whip ?

Ghaz wrote:

yakface wrote:You are right, it doesn't. But if you don't play that the initial placement and subsequent scatter are representational do you stop this "move" (pg 95 does say the scattering model "moves") when it would come within 1" of an enemy model?

As I stated, you can't voluntarily come within 1" of an enemy except when assaulting. The scatter is compulsory movement and thus takes precedence and specifically allows them to move over/be placed on top of enemy models.

So why is it that 50% of the deep strike rule is allowed to override the restrictions on moving within 1" of an enemy model but the other 50% is not allowed to override this? shouldn't one rule be the more specific and take priority in this case?

Your earlier quote never makes a distinction between voluntary and compulsory movement, it simply states "a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." so I don't see why we should be considering voluntary versus compulsory at all, personally I feel that "anywhere on the table" is sufficient because the deep strike rule sits outside the standard ruleset which the restriction was applied to, thus overriding it.

Ignore that post.

Ghaz wrote:

yakface wrote:You are right, it doesn't. But if you don't play that the initial placement and subsequent scatter are representational do you stop this "move" (pg 95 does say the scattering model "moves") when it would come within 1" of an enemy model?

As I stated, you can't voluntarily come within 1" of an enemy except when assaulting. The scatter is compulsory movement and thus takes precedence and specifically allows them to move over/be placed on top of enemy models.

Ghaz,

There, is nothing in that rule about voluntarily or involuntary movement. All movement that would take a model within 1" of an enemy model is halted 1" away. Even FAQ rulings on the subject support that idea, such as with Ork looted vehicle mandatory movement.

You can't have it both ways. If the first model in a DSing unit fully counts as being on the table then DS scatter needs to stop when it moves the model into an illegal position.

If you're worried about it, use one of those tiny plastic tables you get to hold the lid of a pizza box up (you know the ones), and pop the initial model on that.

It may not be high enough tbh, but personally I would either use a counter, or I'd somehow "hover" the model over its intended target - as safely as possible of course.

A friend of mine actually kicked my Fire Prism the other night. That was bad. But to get him back I smashed my tank into what he affectionately calls his "bezerker pile".

Back on subject - if you rules "require" the model on the table; feth the rules man! Your opponent isn't going to get funny about you NOT destroying his paint job.

I vote Necrons should be banned completely. 50% of all rules clarifications resolved. Of course that then means my DE are next but meh.

Should be the nail in the coffin of this subject...

Models In The Way ( Page 11 ) ...a model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement or Shooting phases... Hhmmm - the models are clearly touching if they are stacked on top of each other, and Deep Strike happens in the Movement phase ( toxic wisdom takes out hammer and swings )...

The impassible terrain rules specifically prohibit the placing of a model in impassible terrain, and models, friend or foe, are classified as impassible terrain. There's the usual "except if agreed by both players" exception to the impassible terrain rules, but that's it.

Deep striking says to place the model on the board. Since deep striking doesn't provide an exception for the impassible terrain rule, placing that model on or in impassible terrain (whether it be a model or regular impassible terrain) is not allowed.

What what? The bit your quoting solkan is directly followed by "in the position you would like the to arrive,"

Doesnt sound like actual the model is there. Like yak said, its representational.

If you go on to read the description under the "Deep Strike mishap" heading.. it explains how and when things go wrong.

So you could, if you wanted to, pick a point in the centre of a horde of 30-odd gretchins all spread out.. then roll your scatter (and most likely) to land on those gretchins > This means your models cannont be deployed and are subject to the deepstrike mishap table.

Monoliths get special concideration (like a trygon.. before it got moved to apoc games in 5ed/the new imperail armor rulings IIRC)

Razerous wrote:Doesnt sound like actual the model is there. Like yak said, its representational.

Except the rules say that you place an actual, physical model and not a representational model as a placemarker.

Ghaz wrote:

Razerous wrote:Doesnt sound like actual the model is there. Like yak said, its representational.

Except the rules say that you place an actual, physical model and not a representational model as a placemarker.

Ahh.. What do the rules say eh?

"...place one model..." "..in the position you would like it to arrive," << Assume im just block quoting that chuck.

You roll scatter. You adhere to the scatter dice.

Refer to the mishap table if any model in the unit cannot be deployed

Now whats your problem with that? Why cant I place a model anywhere within the table (4x6 section..as that sounds reasonable/simple)

Please read the rest of the thread. It explains why you can't place that model wherever you want to.

lol ghaz.. the fact it mentions what happens if the model is found to be unable to deploy sorts that out right there and then.

As the scatter die can be hit or scatter, its all covered by the mishap table rules.

Its a specail type of deployement as it mentioned in the deep-strike rules. Anything else you want to bring in is irrelvant. Come up with a good argument & ill listen otherwise dont both.

And yet again, where do the rules say that you can ignore the rule that you can't come within 1" of an enemy except when assaulting? That's already been asked in this thread and not answered. That's why you can't place the model anywhere on the table. Please actually take the time to read the thread and actually answer the ponts that have already been brought up before.

You never do move within 1" of a model.

Yes you do. Placing the model is indeed moving it. It's not sitting off of the board and it sure didn't materialize out of thin air, did it? No. It's there because when you placed it you moved it there.