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I've been noticing the SM under performing. I don't think I'm the only one. When their codex came out months back there was a lot of excitement but as things have seemed to settle down I think its apparent that the Space Marines aren't doing so hot.

This isn't a whining thread, my main army is IG, and with their codex coming out I see the SM being further short changed. I also know there are a lot of other armies that deserve attention before the space marines should even be thought of being revisited.

That said I had a couple ideas for some additional rules for SM that I think would give them the minor boost they need.

I thought a good starting point was something that would emphasize the autonomy of individual marine squads and ther ability of their Sgt. to think and act independent of their commanders to adapt to the battlefield. This was something I posted elsewhere in regards to why SM's don't have IG orders, but that they could benefit from a similar mechanic:

aka_mythos wrote:
Space Marines are by their nature shock troops, they emphasize the mobility of their full force; as opposed to IG who only have certain elements mobile. This mobility even extends to their full fleet of vehicles which can be brought in on Thunderhawk transport serving as tactical heavy lifters, only a few IG elements can deploy in a similar way.

As shock troops their tactics revolve around rapid attacks that penetrate and break the enemies defensive line. This is why orders, as they're done for IG, wouldn't work for marines. The IG orders are slower than what marines would want to deal with in their attempt to press forward. The marine command structure gives more autonomy to individual squads as opposed to IG which are put in platoons and form a more cohesive yet slower unit. Marine Sgt. are effectively making their own orders.

Marines also being as superhuman as they are, some "Orders" wouldn't impact their abilities in a substantial enough way. While a marine could fix a bayonet, the simple fact is, he is just as good with or without because he is just that good.

Now I do believe Orders are a good mechanic and I won't be surprised if it is something from a mechanics perspective that is written into the next edition of rules to put more gaming into the shooting rounds (kinda how running was added to movement), and varies from army to army. Where the Orks "Waaaagh" becomes something of an order or whatever army varied abilities they come up with. That said marine player might deserve "orders" just not necessarily the same ones as IG and not necessarily in the same way.

EDIT:
I had some additional thoughts...
Going back to the more individualize squad oriented nature of space marines I think I came up with some additional "Order" type things that would represent them as opposed to them attempting to utilize what was created for IG. I think with the reduced performance of Space Marines, they could use a little help and these wouldn't be too extreme. Assuming some sort of LD test...
"Take the fight to them!" - Re-roll for running (no shooting)
"Bolter Drill" - Re-roll bolter hits (no assaulting)
"Cover Fire!" - If an enemy unit takes hits, any marine unit may take cover saves against fire from that enemy unit, for the next turn.(?)
"Suppressing Fire!" -Enemy units hit and wounded may only move as if though difficult terrain for their next turn.(?)
"Concentrate Your Fire!" - May re-roll a number of to wound rolls

I think those sound decent, they have less of the sound of deperation the IG ones do and still don't dissuade movement.

I was also thinking how the scope of the game has grown since 3rd, for example the IG will now have off table assets like the Master of the Watch's basilisk bombardment. The space marines have the orbital strike attached to the commander, but I was thinking what other assets to marines have that are uniquely space marines...

A question that frequently comes up is "why do marines use the rhino?" and by association all its variants when the IG have their superior armored vehicles... the answer is mobility, not mobility on land but from orbit. IG are generally landed in large dropships that carry entire companies or battalions of troops, away from the battle zone where they organize and move to the front. SM come into combat zones to establish beachheads. It would be for that reason that they utilize Thunderhawk transports which bring their vehicles in from orbit straight to the combat zone. So back to "why do marines use the rhino?" Because just like modern vehicles used by the US marine corp their are utility trade offs made to the vehicle to allow it to perform in a specific task. Rhinos and their variants have to be light enough to make planet fall on smaller tactical landers, sacrificing armor and firepower to do so. This in my mind is an aspect of the space marines that could be expanded upon.

It could be represented simply by always allowing Space Marine tanks to redeploy at the start of the game, or even go as far as allowing their tanks to come on the side table edges. Probably wouldn't include the landraider.

I think the thunderflare could have been better conceived and possibly expanded on, throw in the Rapier as another weapon option. Removing the IC status from the techmarine and including a number of servitors as part of the unit.

I believe the marines could use another tank. Bring back the Sabre, maybe just as a weapon variant of the vindicator, or something else. Arm it with something that is not the battle cannon but something nearing it. With the 7 Leman russ variants, there is obviously more choice for how another weapon could be done..[

So what does everyone think?

Are you kidding me? Spaz Marines underpowered and in need of help?

Stick to guard.

Seriously, Sm are more powerful now then they have been in a very long time. The last thing they need is any more boosts.

I just always see them die...

If you took the special characters away, then yes. In my opinion, SM lose a lot of their effectiveness. But with them, they allow massive cheese by those cutthroat enough to engineer their armies in ways to capitalize. The biggest offender of all is a certain Salamander Captain toting a pocket heavy flamer, a master-crafted relic blade and the ability to make all melta and flamer weapons twin-linked in addition to making all thunder hammers master-crafted.. With out these undercosted and overpowered special characters much of the space marine codex is overcosted and has lost much of it's 4e effectiveness.

themandudeperson wrote:If you took the special characters away, then yes. In my opinion, SM lose a lot of their effectiveness. But with them, they allow massive cheese by those cutthroat enough to engineer their armies in ways to capitalize. The biggest offender of all is a certain Salamander Captain toting a pocket heavy flamer, a master-crafted relic blade and the ability to make all melta and flamer weapons twin-linked in addition to making all thunder hammers master-crafted.. With out these undercosted and overpowered special characters much of the space marine codex is overcosted and has lost much of it's 4e effectiveness.

Quoted for truth, and as a player that isn't greatly interested in the heros, it makes game play dull, i have refused to buy the 5th ed dex for the marines i glanced over it, hated it and refused to buy it, i am sorry but it just cuts all the fun out of them, it really does, i prefer to stick to your normal leaders not someone set in stone, like a 4th's happy chap, with Artificer armor and jump jets with 3 wounds, he was a monster and i enjoyed deploying him, and most 5th players let me run my 4th list in games, and its more fun that way, he is far scarier than Pedro is, WS5 BS5, 2+ save 4+ invul 3 wounds, power weapon, plasma pistol and if you really want to make him scary toss a PF on him, another thing they tossed that really made each army its own was the chapter traits, it was an awesome way to make your battleforce your own, and helped to give a different taste to each marine army you fought, now with that tossed i found myself with apothecaries on all my squads and now i have to use a normal Sgt now, and who ever threw frag grenades or krak grenades on their tac squads, i never did, it was a waste of points, at 150 for a full ten man squad with no other upgrades, 40pts for both seemed useless, considering i could toss a sgt and some weapons onto the unit for that much, but its for everyone to see as they see it, i just don't like...makes it all about using monster HQs and really tugs away from the rest of your marines, i would be far happier playing 4th ed rules and dexs any day over playing 5th and the cluster $$$$ it seems to be...that's just my opinion so that's about useless to anyone else or GW for the matter, and no this isn't a whine, just a slight vent considering i dump a butt load of money into over 1 companies worth of marines set up 1 way to find out i have to buy a ton of new models just to play...its annoying as hell and brings the level of enjoyment down by alot

I can see where you're coming from with that sentiment...
For the sake of discussion, lets hypothetically say its the next edition and the special characters are gone, what sort of things would you see the marines getting to improve their weakened position?

bringing back the CHapter traits would be a big step, another, toss the nades, let us choose if we want them, terimnators could really use two wounds each, i know silly but you would think that armor would have them kicking a while longer, also return the scouts to BS WS 4, the are scouts but they still have to go through hell to reach where they are, beyond that i can't complain to much, also bring back the abliltiy for hq's at least to go into the armory and hand pick their gear and give the chappy his stats back, loved that monster, well thats just me

Things I'd like to fix:
1.)Bring back the option to skimp on grenades and vet sgts.
2.)Lower the costs of weapons that had their point costs set to match 4e effectiveness (i.e. relic blades, powerfist)
3.)Reduce the cost of taking a second powerfist or similar items for the +1 A (sorry, I refuse to pay 50 pts for an HQ to get +1 A with a powerfist)
4.)Leave the special characters, but raise their point costs and remove their chapter tactics for number 5.
5.)Add a section with chapter tactics for every "major" chapter with either a flat one time point cost or an additional X pts per infantry model. This would allow you to get rid of all of the redundant SM armies while still allowing them what makes them unique. (too bad it will never happen)
6.) Bring back WS BS 4 scouts, that or drop their point costs. They cost the same as they used to but without Telion and a heavy bolter they blow. At least you don't have to pay extra for sniper rifles now though.
7.) Definitely leave combat squads, that in my opinion is one of the greatest ideas they've had since I've been playing 40k. I only wish you could do it at the start of any turn instead of only when you deploy the unit.

themandudeperson wrote:Things I'd like to fix:
5.)Add a section with chapter tactics for every "major" chapter with either a flat one time point cost or an additional X pts per infantry model. This would allow you to get rid of all of the redundant SM armies while still allowing them what makes them unique. (too bad it will never happen)

this could be done similar to the way the IG used to have their doctrines. such as using chaplains in a similar manner to the commisar rule. naturally this would need to be tailored to the more elite marines, but if you had a set of 10-15 different traits along with a list of "notable" chapters (which would need to include ALL 1st founding chapters, and other more famous chapters) but this way you have enough variants possible to allow a plethora of DIY chapters.

I'd figure number 5 would look something like this:
Combat Tactics: same as it is now
Chapter Tactics: a player may choose to replace Combat Tactics with any of the following Chapter Tactics for the listed point costs.

Blood Angels: A points. May field Baal Predators as Heavy Support choices and may take Assault Squads as Troop choices. For every infantry unit, you may add one model as a Death Company member, up to 10. You must field one unit of Death Company, this selection does not take an FOC choice. The Death Company may take jump packs for +X pts per model. Any of the following units may take furious charge for +Y pts: Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Vanguard Squads, Scout Squads, Terminator Squads, Devastator Squads, Bike Squadrons and Attack Bike Squadrons.

Deathwing: B points. Terminator Squads may be taken as troop choices. HQ choices must take Terminator armor

Ravenwing/White Scars: C points. Bike Squadrons may be taken as troop choices. HQ choices must take bikes.

Salamanders: D points. Tactical and Devastator squads may choose to replace their Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher or Multi-Melta with a Flamer. Tactical and Devastator squads may choose to replace their plasma cannon for a meltagun. Tactical and Devastator squads may choose to replace their lascannon for a plasmagun.
etc, etc, etc.

I'd be happy with just a few minor adjustments:

Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport
Servitors as crew for Thunderfire
Reasonably priced Vanguard
Additional troops choices based on HQ equipment (Assault Squads and Terminators)
Thunderfire available as up to three per Heavy Slot
Make drop pods available to more units
Make Drop Pod Assault voluntary
Make Locator beacons available to more units

That would fix a fair number of the minor complaints I have about the codex

Jack

I don't know agreed you have to use special characters but their are some severely undercosted things in the list like Dakka Preds 85pts for AV 13 and 8 shots is freaking cheap, but with my marines I win a load more games than the odd few I generally used, heres the 1500pt list I am using at the moment:

Shrike

10 Tactical Marines: PW, MG, ML, Rhino

10 Tactical Marines: PW, MG, ML, Rhino

10 Tactical Marines: PW, PG, Lascannon, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

10 Assault Marines: Power Fist

Vindicator

Vindicator

Pred: Autocannons, Heavy Bolters

and for 2k I add 2 Dreads with Lascannons, 5 Termies with an Ass Cannon and a cheapo chaplain to run with the Termies (if i cut a few things like the odd ass marine and the lascannon etc)

Jackmojo wrote:
Additional troops choices based on HQ equipment (Assault Squads and Terminators)

i dont think that termies as troops would be a good thing in anything other than deathwing armies, however, having more options for your command squads/Honor guard squads based on one or both of your HQ choices (ie. a captain in terminator armor "unlocks" the ability to upgrade command squad armor to terminator armor for X points, or a jump pack equipped commander gives the ability to have jump pack CMD SQD)

so im not the only one who found them daemon food.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:
Additional troops choices based on HQ equipment (Assault Squads and Terminators)

i dont think that termies as troops would be a good thing in anything other than deathwing armies, however, having more options for your command squads/Honor guard squads based on one or both of your HQ choices (ie. a captain in terminator armor "unlocks" the ability to upgrade command squad armor to terminator armor for X points, or a jump pack equipped commander gives the ability to have jump pack CMD SQD)

Would be a good start to keep the captain and command-squad tied.

Capt => TE or JP or Bike = cmd => TE or JP or Bike.

Cmd = size 5-10 marines. Upgrade to champ, upgrade to standard, 0-3 special weapons (PG,MG,FL) apothecary becomes IC.

Replace chapter tactics with Legion tactics.
[i]Must choose first: predecessor SM Legion. Reduce basic points for all units, add points as specified per Legion Tactic.
So basic troops could buy from "legion tactics",but the whole army (needs definition in RAW) will use the same legion tactic.
SM Legions get: USR's and the ability to move units into a troop-slot, 1x asset for every Legion (may include all 20 legions).

I should work this out a little.

Sorry, Marines are fine. I've played them several times since the newest codex and they are a solid army. Granted they aren't an auto-win but even without the special characters they are still nasty in the hands of a good player. Just so many people play Space Marines that you it massively drops the win percentages for them.

I would take a rhino for my Guard, given the option, long before a Chimera. It's not a pocket tank, but it's very efficient for what I want the Chimera to do - get 10 guys some place faster than walking, and without getting shot to high hell.

This might change with the new codex, but I don't think so.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:
Additional troops choices based on HQ equipment (Assault Squads and Terminators)

i dont think that termies as troops would be a good thing in anything other than deathwing armies, however, having more options for your command squads/Honor guard squads based on one or both of your HQ choices (ie. a captain in terminator armor "unlocks" the ability to upgrade command squad armor to terminator armor for X points, or a jump pack equipped commander gives the ability to have jump pack CMD SQD)

My take on it is that 40k occurs with such small forces that armies should reasonably be able to come from any company in a chapter (Hell I think it would be neat if it were possible to get Devastators as troops, I'm just not sure what sort of gear a captain would buy to unlock it that would make any sense), so a force of 25-35 terminators on an objective based mission would be fine for any chapter.

Jack

Marines are fine. It seems here everyone is saying we want back old things but don't want to give up the cool new things. I mean would you prefer to have chapter tactics and old chappy if you couldn't have drop pods, 35 point rhinos, sternguard, 3+ invul save cc termies feel no pain apothecaries? Not to mention the special rules conferred by the hero type characters. Oh and of course not being able to run. The book was designed to go along with 5th ed. Space marines are fine and get routinely updated. Dark Eldar haven't had a new codex since 1998! That being said. 50 points for +1 attack with a powerfist is crazy.

Also I think vanilla marines should be just that, vanilla. According to fluff almost all marines operate in the same way as laid out by codex astartes with few differences. 30% of all new marine chapters are based off of the Ultramarines and fight the same way. Some chapters have slight differences, which is conferred by the hero type characters. It doesn't make sense for every single marine army that is based of the basic book should have lists and lists of special rules. Its one of the problems with IG doctrines, its annoying and confusing for the people you are playing against. (I play IG as well as vanilla marines these days) The other big chapters like BA SW DA and BT will get their own dexs which should address some of these problems. Space wolf scouts will most def have BS and WS 4. And I bet BA and BT chappies will be better than vanilla chappies.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant don't mean it to be I just like gameplay going with the fun 40k fluff.

I was generally trying to propose a new slant to how the marines play on the field and with only very minor additions. If the ideal of codex design is to achieve a balanced codex, say on a scale of 1 to 10 a 7, I see this codex being a 6.85 while the previous one was an 8... I see the current one as being more balanced at the cost of certain mechanics.

I thought those mechanics were fun and interesting even if they got abused... I was just trying to propose a different mechanic that wouldn't require special characters or drop pods.

dumplingman wrote:Marines are fine. It seems here everyone is saying we want back old things but don't want to give up the cool new things. I mean would you prefer to have chapter tactics and old chappy if you couldn't have drop pods, 35 point rhinos, sternguard, 3+ invul save cc termies feel no pain apothecaries? Not to mention the special rules conferred by the hero type characters. Oh and of course not being able to run. The book was designed to go along with 5th ed. Space marines are fine and get routinely updated. Dark Eldar haven't had a new codex since 1998! That being said. 50 points for +1 attack with a powerfist is crazy.

Also I think vanilla marines should be just that, vanilla. According to fluff almost all marines operate in the same way as laid out by codex astartes with few differences. 30% of all new marine chapters are based off of the Ultramarines and fight the same way. Some chapters have slight differences, which is conferred by the hero type characters. It doesn't make sense for every single marine army that is based of the basic book should have lists and lists of special rules. Its one of the problems with IG doctrines, its annoying and confusing for the people you are playing against. (I play IG as well as vanilla marines these days) The other big chapters like BA SW DA and BT will get their own dexs which should address some of these problems. Space wolf scouts will most def have BS and WS 4. And I bet BA and BT chappies will be better than vanilla chappies.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant don't mean it to be I just like gameplay going with the fun 40k fluff.

well if it comes right down to it, yeah i would happily trade all the new stuff, for my old 4th ed rules, no problem in the least, as for drop pods, they where there in 4th, i just never used them, and chapter traits make plenty of sense for those of us trying to fluff out our army, i can see what your saying by using the other marines with codexs, but what about those people that want their own spin, but don't want to use the rules from one of those chapters, and the traits where far from unevened, you would have to give up something for your army, and if you took two traits, you have to lose out on either heavy support, fast attack or elites. and yes most chapters follow the teachings of codex astartes but there are many chapters that ignore some type of training to advance a certain type, like the easiest example i can think of off the top of my head would be the Soul Drinkers, all about assaulting, and boarding actions, they tend to lack elite choices and the heavier armor of the other chapters for the simple fact that they don't use it, so i can see a player wanting to give up land raider crusaders and predator destuctors in exchange for more assault troops, and some other things as well, but each chapter is it own, and each follows its own teachings as they see fit, again this is just my opinion and in the case of playing the game, and collecting my figures thats how i select them, but take it for whats it's worth

99MDeery wrote:I don't know agreed you have to use special characters but their are some severely undercosted things in the list like Dakka Preds 85pts for AV 13 and 8 shots is freaking cheap, but with my marines I win a load more games than the odd few I generally used, heres the 1500pt list I am using at the moment:

Shrike
10 Tactical Marines: PW, MG, ML, Rhino
10 Tactical Marines: PW, MG, ML, Rhino
10 Tactical Marines: PW, PG, Lascannon, Razorback w/ TL Lascannon
10 Assault Marines: Power Fist
Vindicator
Vindicator
Pred: Autocannons, Heavy Bolters

and for 2k I add 2 Dreads with Lascannons, 5 Termies with an Ass Cannon and a cheapo chaplain to run with the Termies (if i cut a few things like the odd ass marine and the lascannon etc)

Now drop Shrike for a few games and see if your boys are nearly as awesome. I won't say you can't win, but your infantry is going to have a much harder time getting the charge off with out the addition of fleet. Sit down and try to make a captain with a similar equipment list, with some of the special characters you can't even give a basic HQ a similar load out without spending more points and losing the nifty special rules they come with. Also, I don't really think that the Dakka Predator is drastically undercosted, I think another 10-15 pts would make it just right though. It's the fact that 3x lascannon wagon's point cost went through the roof in points that makes the Dakka Predator more attractive, you can almost field 2 of them for the cost of a 3x lascannon Predator..

dumplingman wrote:Marines are fine. It seems here everyone is saying we want back old things but don't want to give up the cool new things. I mean would you prefer to have chapter tactics and old chappy if you couldn't have drop pods, 35 point rhinos, sternguard, 3+ invul save cc termies feel no pain apothecaries? Not to mention the special rules conferred by the hero type characters. Oh and of course not being able to run. The book was designed to go along with 5th ed. Space marines are fine and get routinely updated. Dark Eldar haven't had a new codex since 1998! That being said. 50 points for +1 attack with a powerfist is crazy.

Also I think vanilla marines should be just that, vanilla. According to fluff almost all marines operate in the same way as laid out by codex astartes with few differences. 30% of all new marine chapters are based off of the Ultramarines and fight the same way. Some chapters have slight differences, which is conferred by the hero type characters. It doesn't make sense for every single marine army that is based of the basic book should have lists and lists of special rules. Its one of the problems with IG doctrines, its annoying and confusing for the people you are playing against. (I play IG as well as vanilla marines these days) The other big chapters like BA SW DA and BT will get their own dexs which should address some of these problems. Space wolf scouts will most def have BS and WS 4. And I bet BA and BT chappies will be better than vanilla chappies.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant don't mean it to be I just like gameplay going with the fun 40k fluff.

I don't neccessarily want the old stuff back, I understand Garuss Acine prefers the 4e codex and I like aspects of it. It's just that I don't like the lack of customization in the 5e codex. You MUST have a vet sgt leading your unit, even if you don't want one. You MUST take grenades, even if you don't need them. You MUST take 10 men in your tactical squads to get special or heavy weapons.
As far as Dark Eldar not being updated, I'm with you on that. I've been waiting since I've started collected 40k models for a new book. But if they cut the development cycle down by combining all of the different space marine codi into one then you'd have 1 release for space marines. Instead of DA, then BA, then SM, then SW then some time later BT. Seeing as GW likes to release things every 3 months that's 15 months to update all of them when they could have rolled them all together and had a year to release new codi for armies that need them: Tau, Necrons and DE.

dumplingman wrote:Marines are fine. It seems here everyone is saying we want back old things but don't want to give up the cool new things.

ive yet to play a single game, in 4th or 5th edition, i just saw an idea that someone had, and felt that i had an idea that would go along nicely with that, that could possibly expand that idea. those that know me, know that ive been in a pretty crappy place where building/painting models was nigh on impossible, so all i had were codices and BL books to read. Fear not!! for i am preparing my army basically as we speak