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So, for a guy in my gaming group, we are trying to make Deathwing (and Ravenwing) viable again. I do not care about making dark angels themselves good again, because I believe just playing them using Codex SM 5ed is enough.

My main goal would be to have really small rule change to allow for Deathwing being playable competitively again. So simply making Belial a FOC-changing independent character for Codex Space Marines, 5th edition, seems to be the best way. That way, you can use all the pretty well-designed advantages of 5ed SM and still to the DA thing.

Proposed rule: Belial, in all his glory (he is a very flexible character with different weapon layouts), allows terminators to be taken as troop choice and replaces combat tactics with the Deathwing assault rule.

That's it. There might be other modifiers to be thought of, like also granting fearlessness or limiting the squad size to 5 or allowing mixing the weapon loadouts, or allowing attached IC to also use deathwing assault, but: To me, there is nothing more sexy (okay, when talking about plastic toy soldiers) than 10 assault terminators with two bolted-on cyclone missile launchers (for threat range) and a gating librarian (for mobility). So if I really crave a rule like that, it is probably overpowered.

What are your opinions on that? If you find potential exploits, please tell.

I did the same thing several months ago, though have yet to try it. Reason being is that many people view the potential spamming of termies using TH/SS to be too abusive. I disagree as I feel this is the typical kneejerk reaction to a perceived powerloadout, but I can see their point. I don't use such load outs with my termies anyways because I feel that the SB/PF to be far superior.

Anyways, in order to fully incorporate Belial into the new SM codex, two entries are required.

The descriptive entry:


The rules entry in the back of the book:


You will notice if you look closely that this isn't merely a copy paste, but the majority of it is is some ways. It is best to have a copy of the DA & SM codex handy when looking at these two entries for cross reference purposes to know what has changed and why.
It is in order to better and more closely assimilate to how the newer SM codex is setup and how its rules are used.

For instance, Belial in the DA codex does not have chapter tactics, but he does here so that there is consistency with the sm rules and for disambiguation. Also, the deathwing rule in Belial's descriptive entry is for further disambiguation when his rules reference deathwing terminators. This is to ensure that his entry remains as unchanged as possible from what is written in the DA codex, but allows integration into the newer SM codex. I am sure you get the idea.

I have gotten feedback concerning this and the most critical comment I have received is that Belial is too cheap. Since he is the exact same points costs as in the DA codex, then I will have to disagree. He may be mutable and allow termies to be taken as troops, but he is far and away not a very impressive HQ. But I do think there may be merit in the idea of adjusting his point cost with an increase to make him being included in the newer codex more palatable to opponents, if for no other reason than a token gesture of compromise.
I think 20-30 points is reasonable. Feedback from locals agree.

edit #1 is an PDF file for the above if you choose to use it for better printing capabilities.
edit #2 I have no idea why the filesize is so huge. Sorry.
edit #3 I have now included the revised and corrected Belial entry, please refer to this file instead in case the mod I asked to delete the original file is unable to delete it. The file is now considerably smaller as I figured out compression. I Я Smart.

Also I think the reason I removed his rites of battle rule was because of chapter tactics as a compromise. its been a few months so I don't exactly recall why to be certain.

Looking back now, I am not sure that was such a good idea. I think I overbalanced it to make him even weaker. I think I should fix this to where he retains his rites of battle rule.

[edit]
ahh now I remember why rites of battle was omitted. This house rule for Belial was made prior to the SM codex release date, but after we got several leaks concerning rules. The omission was made because it was believed that the rites of battle rule was no longer present in the new codex, which we now know is false.

I am editing the above post to include the revised PDF file. As well, the wording for Rites of battle is taken from the DA codex as the DA codex wording is a bit more concise than the wording found in the SM codex (it is in effect the exact same rule as found in the SM codex), if a bit more lengthy by a few words.

Belial, Master of the Deathwing............140 points

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+

Unit type- infantry

Wargear- Terminator armor, storm bolter, master crafted power sword

Special rules- Fearless, independent character, ATSKNF, Deathwing assault

Armored Assault- Terminator squads (both types) may be taken as troops. Terminators May replace combat tactics with Deathwing assault.

Deathwing assault-allows half of your terminator squads (rounding up) to Deep Strike on the first turn. Squads that take Deathwing assault may become fearless for +3 points a model.

Options- Replace storm Bolter and sword with lightning claws or storm shield and thunder hammer for free
-One terminator may be upgraded to a apothecary with a narthecium for +30 points.
-One terminator may be upgraded to carry a company standard for +15 points.

this is what I did, using him in the sm codex. I also did this with sammel, and I feel justified using these rules.

HF: Shouldn't Belial be Fearless? Or have you removed the fearless rule from Deathwing as well?

I really, really hope that in 6th ed they just roll DA/BA into the main dex with specific 'Angels special characters.

By the DA codex, both belial and deathwing are fearless.

I figured for the sake of keeping it as close as possible to what is in the marine dex and to keep from modifying anything more than belials entry (exception being the one stipulation he gives for allowing termies to mix weapons) it might be a good idea to just drop fearless altogether. Basically for ease of integration.
Although some opponents might beleive that making them fearless would be a bit OTT, even if they do have it in the DA codex.

Imagine not only are the termies going to have 2+/3++, but fearless on top of that.

Opponents might be more likely to accept this than if they were fearless.

On the other hand, I am sure an opponent would argue that fearless is there as a detriment to DW as fearless in an assault isn't good for tiny high priced squads.

*shrug*

I sided with caution and dropped it.

If anything, they should just go back to having stubborn, IMO. That way they can at least be pinned, even though that occurrence is somewhat rare.

Seems fine. Otherwise all you'd be doing is giving Deathwing all the new toys without removing any of their drawbacks.

Fearless is a very good thing for the Deathwing. While they're small expensive squads, they're small expensive squads with Sv2+. That means there's not many of them to kill, and they save No Retreat! wounds on a 2+, so they'll only have to make four such saves at maximum, not including characters.

Ozymandias wrote:Seems fine. Otherwise all you'd be doing is giving Deathwing all the new toys without removing any of their drawbacks.

Exactly.

There are other nuances that one must look at more closely to understand the balance.

One example is "Belial allows all deathwing terminators to switch weapons" rule.

This doesnt change standard termies or assault termies.

So if you take standard termies, they can mix their weapons as usual as well as get a heavy. Not to mention a LR transport.

But if you choose to take a unit of assault termies, you can already mix their weapons by default (in other words, they remain without ranged capability) but they can have access to the other LR transport.

(only two units of termies in the SM codex may take a LR transport 'unit upgrade'.)

So if you want that second unit to have access to a transport, then you must forgo having ranged weapons in that assault squad.

Just one example of trying to make it balanced by fitting with the SM codex.

[edit to add quote]

Also, there are a lot of ways to break this list. For instance, forgoing belials chapter tactics of deathwing assault and using vulkans chapter tactics instead.
The house rule doesn't take into account how one might break the list as it assumes the player will abide by a more 'classical' way of fielding deathwing. Being spares with other unit that arent "Termies, dreads, or LR's" and self policing in the name of balance while still getting to use a few new toys to make DW a bit more competitive.

One question that still remains in my mind is why go through this trouble to begin with? You seem to have had decent success with your Deathwing army despite the underpowered codex. I am currently building a Deathwing force and I think it can hang with the big boys as is so why try to incorporate it into the SM dex?

Or is this more of a mental exercise and a reason to build a LR Redeemer?

I agree. I am finding that I can be quite successful with my deathwing, despite the SM's getting new shiny toys. I was having a fit at first, but have come to terms that I can make what I have available in the DA codex work just as well if not better than what is in the SM codex.

Its actually hard for a lot of people to understand that I am being serious when I say that, but I do indeed beleive that with the slightest of tweaks by GW, that DW can be a truly competitive list. I honestly do beleive that DW work quite well as they stand right now, which has caused some sonsiderable back tracking by me for what I have said for the past two years concerning the DA codex. I still think DA battle company blows big fat weiners, but DW are fine.

This mod was made in response to the SM codex as a kneejerk reaction to what I felt entitled to because of DA's poor showing in 4th ed.
I know longer feel it is really warranted. But I went through a fair amount of brain power to try and achieve what I wrote (or what GW wrote so I could modify it, rather) so I figured f someone else out there found it usful, then it wasnt a complete waste of my time.

Hellfury:

So now that's you've figured Dark Angels out for 5th edition, what would you say that you've figured out about the Deathwing/Ravenwing, and what's missing from the Dark Angel Battle Companies?

Deathraven style play I have found to be extremely aggressive and I am more and more fond of it each time I try it. In my less than expert opinion, I think deathraven is about the most competitive way to play DA.

As for what DA battle companies lack, I will over simplify.

DA battle companies need more flexibility (squad size), better options (I am not even gonna start), cheaper cost (more of the obvious).

Unless you plan revolves around a specific special character in the DA codex, or you wish to use DW/RW elements in your list (of which Vanilla get it better anyways) there is no need to play it. In nearly every way DA battle companies are outclassed.

The perks of:
smoke launchers
ven dreads
techmarines and their servitors (lol)
cheaper HQ with slightly higher stats

...just doesn't make up for the nearly 10% cost increase in a list when compared to vanilla AND then be subpar.

But like I said, I think the DA codex has a few things going for it, it just isn't with straight battle companies. I gave it an honest try instead of jumping on the bandwagon of haters, but they were right. I will say they are better now than in 4th, but thats little consolation.

Have you tried taking an Interrogator Chaplain and a Captain with a Command Squad? The Command Squad can take a Sacred Standard, conferring Fearless to nearby units. The Command Squad itself is Fearless.

I'm not sure what you mean by how Battle Companies need more flexible squad sizes and better options. After all, they can take short squads with special weapons, split into combat squads, and so on. I can see what you mean with the cost of them, but given a Captain they have Ld10 from Rites of Battle.

The Company Veterans can also be pretty nasty without the weaknesses of specialization that plague Vanguard and Sternguard, and Dark Angel Combat Shields are pretty cool.

Mainly, though, I think you really need to emphasize the bits that Dark Angels get that regular Marines don't, like the Fearlessness, the small flexible squads, and so on.

Here's a sample list I drummed up, small, but punches above its weight thanks to stuff like the cheap Lascannons and Venerable on the Dreadnoughts, the Sacred Standard, and the Interrogator Chaplain. Some ideas for modification include taking two Interrogator-Chaplains, one to lead each part of a combat-squadded Assault Squad, or giving up the Captain and the Chaplain's Jump Packs for two Whirlwinds.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by how Battle Companies need more flexible squad sizes and better options. After all, they can take short squads with special weapons, split into combat squads, and so on.

Quick comparison.

SM codex:
Where a unit has a mutable squad size it says "You may include up to X additional Y's...for +Z points per model."

DA codex:
Where a unit has a mutable squad size, the majority of the time it says "The squad may include X additional Y's for Z points."

With SM it is squad sizes of 5,6,7,8,9,10
With DA it is squad sizes of 5,10

Its a pretty big difference.

I think it is pretty obvious that I am not saying that DA are an unworkable and unfieldable force as a battle company. I am saying that by comparison they are lacking in many ways and are handicapped for no other reason than because Jervis believes this is how it should be by his own admittance.

I beleive Jervis listened to what the consumers had to say on this matter and is why the sm codex isn't "DA codex part deux" for the most part.

Ozymandias wrote:One question that still remains in my mind is why go through this trouble to begin with? You seem to have had decent success with your Deathwing army despite the underpowered codex. I am currently building a Deathwing force and I think it can hang with the big boys as is so why try to incorporate it into the SM dex?

Ah, well. I think even with the old DA codex you can build a proper army list. Not an excellent one - I'll go as far as to say you cannot build a list that competes at national level reliably. Unless you define "compete" as "I win slightly more than I loose" instead of "I have a chance to actually win the tourney". But you can make a proper second-tier list, no doubt. And that is what I like most, because these make for much happier co-gamers.

Yet with 5th ed. codex SM, you can build several great 2nd tier armies. Plus, combat squadding to me seems to be the coolest thing done in a long time (you're not done after you wrote the army list, wow! And it's not "roll a dice and see if you auto-win or auto-lose" like with Chaos demons).
So you got several levers and screws to tweak your game with the new codex SM, which, to me, makes it more enjoyable.

Plus, I cannot stand the same things having different rules - and the new TH&SS makes for a great game, because while it is a lot of eggs in only one basket, it is a ceramite- and plasteel-armored basket, if I may stress the metaphor. It already has changed the meta game (hey, people thing about Necron immortals again!) and I even think that is the purpose of the new rules.

That is why I think Belial should be integrated into the 5th edition SM codex.


I like Hellfury's take on Belial. I had not thought about increasing his costs, but I think it would make sense. I still feel the whole deal is too attractive, even with rites of battle removed, I do not think he has been overbalanced. You're not buying him for his stats, but for the ability to take terminators as troop choices. And that one is too cool.


But instead of trying to balance the whole army by making their HQ expensive (which does not scale with increased point levels), I have been thinking about making the ability less powerful, using the Pedro Kantor approach: How about they do not become troop choices but simply count as scoring? Though that might reduce their use a lot in games > 1500 (because you cannot field more than 30 terminators), but it precludes another take on LR spam, by using min size terminator squads, each with LR...


Nurglitch exactly mirrored my thoughts on leaving out fearless: It may be a liability to weaker troops, but not for troops with 2+ saves.

Tierlieb wrote:I'll go as far as to say you cannot build a list that competes at national level reliably.

2nd place at the National UK GT heat 2 results begs to differ. At least for a deathraven setup. Apparently he is also taking it to the finals this month.
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=151954&st=0

Mughi also did fairly well at a GT along with another DA player (Termies, bikes, tanks)
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179205&highlight=doublewing

I will agree that you probably wont see a DA battle company doing too hot in a GT though.

Tierlieb wrote:You're not buying him for his stats, but for the ability to take terminators as troop choices. And that one is too cool.

Of course. But also keep in mind that the deathwing assault rule is a terminator squad rule originally, one which they apparently pay 3 points a model for (along with fearless and perhaps the mixing of weapons). I incorporated that into Belial's rules instead of tweaking two different entries.

So there is fair reason to increase his cost. Exactly what I have no idea as that will take playtesting. I wont be the one to do it because I do pretty well with my list so asking the locals if I can would seem like powergaming to them.

Tierlieb wrote:Nurglitch exactly mirrored my thoughts on leaving out fearless: It may be a liability to weaker troops, but not for troops with 2+ saves.

I also understand as well, I just attempted to minimize tweaking rules as much as I could to make integration more attractive. The more people you can convince to play with this initially the better because after a few games they will warm up to the idea of possibly including fearless in there if the termies still prove too weak. That was the intent anyways.

Hellfury:

That variable squad size is a chimera. Unless you take a full squad of 10, all you're getting are bolter-wielding Marines. It's not like you can take 6 Marines with a Melta Gun in a Codex: Space Marine list.

The one thing that DA Battle Companies has going for it is the ability to take 5 dudes with a special (which SM currently can't take). This means I can get 6 squads of 5 with a special in a Razorback for about 150 points each. So if you want to go full mech they aren't too bad.

But really, except for a few very specific builds, the SM dex can do everything better and cheaper with more flexibility.

Ozymandias:

Except it isn't only one thing. As I pointed out earlier, there's also the Sacred Standards, much less expensive access to the Rites of Battle, and so on.

I saw your list Nurglitch and frankly I wasn't that impressed. I think I could still make a list with the SM dex that looked like yours but overall played better.

I think that the DA dex boils down to 3 real builds that can compete with the SM dex: MSU Mech, Deathwing, Doublewing (Deathraven). Beyond that, I don't think DA have anything over the SM.

I'm not giving up on my DA, but I don't see myself deviating from the above 3 builds.

Ozymandias:

Okay, so how about posting an equivalent Space Marine in the thread I started and point out how it can be played better?

Not a bad idea. I'm at work and don't have my codex with me but when I get home and if I still care I will.

That assumes I can find my SM codex...


Oh and what's with changing avatars!?