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Okay, so the Ork codex says this:

For each 10 getchin, you must take one runtherd.

Obviously, this means that for 10 gretchin you must have one runtherd, for 20 grots you need two, and for 30 you need three. But, what about for those numbers in between? For 11-19 gretchin, do you need one runtherd or two? For 21-29 grots, do you need two runtherds or three?

I know that for mobs of boyz, if you want to get your extra big shoota or rokkit loncha, you need to flip the tens digit in your model count. With 19 you can only have one, but as soon as you hit 20 models you can get your second rokkit or whatever. Does the same rule apply here, or can a runtherd coltrol a maximum of ten grots, and the addition of an eleventh grot (12th model) necessitate the pressence of a second runtherd (and thus 13 models on the field)?

Gretchin wrote:For every ten Gretchin you must take one
-Runtherd......+x points per model

To solve this is easy. "For every x Gretchin" means that same thing as "For each group of Gretchin" where every group's membership is up to 10 Gretchin.

Since you have to have one Runtherd for each group, rather than the number that the group is composed of, and one group of Gretchin composed of 10 and another group is composed of 1, a herd with 11 Gretchin will require 2 Runtherds.

I disagree. I think it means that for every full 10 grotz, you need one runtherd. 29 grotz = 2 runtherds. 30 grotz = 3 runtherds.

edit: For what it's worth, INAT FAQ says that it's every full 10 weedy grotz.

So, at minimum you have to take at least 10 Grots and 1 Runtherd. That's one set of Grots to one set of Runtherd. If Runtherds were optional, and it was written that "For every ten Grots you may take one Runtherd" then you'd need a minimum of ten Grots per Runtherd.

But instead, because it's written as a requirement, or limit, such that "For every ten Gretchin you must take one Runtherd" it's the other way around, meaning the same as "For every Runtherd, you may have up to ten Grots"

Nurglitch wrote:To solve this is easy. "For every x Gretchin" means that same thing as "For each group of Gretchin" where every group's membership is up to 10 Gretchin.

Quite simply not true.
"For every x Gretchin" does NOT mean the same as "For each group of Gretchin" where every group's membership is up to 10 Gretchin.
Using exactly the same wording, the rule for buying Special Weapons in Boyz Mobz states:
"For every 10 boyz in the mob ...". May I buy a 2nd Special Weapon for my 11th boy?

There are two possible interpretations of "For every ten ..."
1) For every FULL 10.
2) For every 10, or part thereof.

It is not clear which interpretation GW meant for us to use

Nurglitch wrote:To solve this is easy. "For every x Gretchin" means that same thing as "For each group of Gretchin" where every group's membership is up to 10 Gretchin.

That might be an easy solution but its not the automatically the right one. You've added an extra rule defining each 10 as a group and then defined each group of ten as 'up to' 10 models by adding 'up to' where none of that is suggested in the rules. This is nothing but Rules As Wished. The actual rule puts a specific link, for each ten gretchin means you must have a runtherd.

So in a 29 grot unit,
The first ten mean you have a runtherd.
The second ten mean you have a runtherd.
The next nine aren't third ten and therefore no runtherd allowed, because they're nine and nine isn't ten. (And no, we aren't intrested in any strange and curious values of nine and ten that are equal.)

The way the rule is written it clearly requires 10 grots for you to have a runherd. Not 9, not 1, nor any othe number except 10.

Ork Codex:

"For every 10 orks in the mob, you may take..."

"For every 10 gretchin, you must take..."


It is the same phrase with the only difference being that for ork boyz, the heavy weapons are optional and for gretchin it is mandatory.

While I will agree it is not absolutely stated for a FULL ten to qualify in either case. I would apply the same ruling to gretchin as your group applies to ork boy mobz.

So IF your group believes 11 orks qualifies you for 2 big shootas, then 11 gretchin requires 2 runtherds.

Correction, Blackspike, it's not clear to you which interpretation GW meant for us to use.

It's not clear for you because you're conflating two grammatically similar sentences as having the same logical content.

The keywords here are "may" and "must", and these are not interchangeable, logically. The logic in question is, naturally, modal logic, the logic of necessity and possibility.

In the case of the Gretchin, we should read the requirements given for Runtherds as saying the same thing as "You must take one Runtherd for every ten Gretchin" or "It is necessary to take one Runtherd for every ten Gretchin.

In the case of the Orks, we should read the requirements given for Runtherds as saying the same thing as "You may exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob" or "It is possible to exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob"

This is a simple matter of substitution, which makes it clear that having ten Orks in a mob to permit a weapon substitution is different from having one Ork in a mob to permit an extra ten Gretchin.

Nurglitch wrote:So, at minimum you have to take at least 10 Grots and 1 Runtherd. That's one set of Grots to one set of Runtherd. If Runtherds were optional, and it was written that "For every ten Grots you may take one Runtherd" then you'd need a minimum of ten Grots per Runtherd.

But instead, because it's written as a requirement, or limit, such that "For every ten Gretchin you must take one Runtherd" it's the other way around, meaning the same as "For every Runtherd, you may have up to ten Grots"

Top Statement: Yeah, but since you can't take less than 10 grots that logic becomes a misnomer as you have no proof as to what the intention is.

Bottom Statement: It says "for every ten.." so let's put the minimum squad amount 1 runtherd and 10 grot aside, as that is a constant amount required in any unit of grots, and try this out:

Does (11-10)=10? No, therefore you can't take a Runtherd.
Does (12-10)=10? No, therefore you can't take a Runtherd.
Does (13-10)=10? No, therefore you can't take a Runtherd.
Does (14-10)=10? No, therefore you can't take a Runtherd.
...
Does (20-10)=10? Yes, therefore you must take an additional runtherd.

Apparently, I'm not the only one finding it unclear.

I am not debating the similarity of "may" and "must".
I am questioning the meaning of "For every 10 ..."

Using your logic,:
"For every 10 Orks" means that same thing as "For each group of Orks" where every group's membership is up to 10 Orks.
Hence, 11 Orks is a group of 10 and a group of up to 10, 2 groups, therefore the option (may) of two special weapons.

Nurglitch:

Let's take a quote that you took straight out of the codex:

"You may exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob" or "It is possible to exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob"

We all know that not only is the intention of this statement, but the RAW translation of it is that you can't exchange a shoota/slugga for a bs/rokkit launcha until you have reached a multiple of ten, right?

Well take a look at this (Please correct me if you find a flaw in my logic, I'm not trying to be stuffy or arrogant, I just thought that would be a good way of explaining my interpretation of the rule to you):

---

"You may exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob" or "It is possible to exchange one Ork's shoota/slugga for a big shoota/rokkit launcha for every ten Orks in the mob"

Okay, let's substitute the following:
-"May" FOR "Must"
-"Exchange (1) shoota/slugga for a (1)big shoota/rokkit launcha" FOR "take one runtherder"
-"for every ten orks" for "for every ten gretchin"

...and then the statement becomes this:

"You must take one runtherder for every ten gretchin in the mob." = "For every ten Gretchin in the mob, you must take one Runtherd"

Therefore, you would only be able to take one runtherder for every multiple of ten grots.

It is essentially the same thing as the orks weapon options with the following exceptions:
-It is worded in a different order, but in a way where it doesn't affect the outcome.
-It is not an option but rather a requirement
-It is not an exchangement but rather an addition.

Every 10 means every 10, not less than or equal to 10. I really don't see what the debate is about. For how much actual ambiguity there is in the rules you don't need to make more where none exists. I'm not trying to be mean at all, but the wording is very plain and obvious imho.

DAaddict wrote:Ork Codex:

"For every 10 orks in the mob, you may take..."

"For every 10 gretchin, you must take..."


It is the same phrase with the only difference being that for ork boyz, the heavy weapons are optional and for gretchin it is mandatory.

While I will agree it is not absolutely stated for a FULL ten to qualify in either case. I would apply the same ruling to gretchin as your group applies to ork boy mobz.

So IF your group believes 11 orks qualifies you for 2 big shootas, then 11 gretchin requires 2 runtherds.

This post is an excellent example of reading skills and how sometimes we can fail to apply.

The only difference, as you say, is that one sentence states what is mandatory (or necessary, to introduce the jargon of modal logic), and one sentence states what is options (or possible, to introduce a piece of jargon to complement the term 'necessary' in expressing modal concepts such as mandatory-ness and options.).

That is the only difference, and it is the difference that makes two superficially similar sentences mean very different things. This can be checked easily, by paraphrasing the sentences as I have done is a little bit of (oh boy, more jargon!) 'conceptual analysis'.

'Conceptual analysis' is a reading skill that tends to get ignored these days, which isn't good because it's handy for getting at the substance of rules and avoiding getting hung up on how they're expressed (or, alternately, figuring out ways to express them better, but that's a writing skill).

By conceptually analyzing the two sentences, and comparing the analyzed sentences, I have shown that while the sentences are superficially similar, and indeed have some logical similarity vis-a-vis both being conditional statements, their conditions (or 'antecedents' for you jargon enthusiasts out there) are grammatically switched.

Thus it is a simple matter of substitution to make it clear that having ten Orks in a mob to permit a weapon substitution is different from having one Ork in a mob to permit an extra ten Gretchin, despite the similarities in the expression of these rules.

Agreed SmoovKriminal.

That is what I was trying to say. The same logic to both entries. So to extend the logic to both ork boyz and gretchin mobz.

IF 11 orks allows you to take 2 special weapons, then 11 gretchin requires you to take 2 runtherds.

If you need 20 orks to take 2 special weapons, then you don't need 2 runtherds until you have 20 gretchin.

To my knowledge, everywhere I have played, it is the second statement that is accurate for ork boyz therefore it should be the same logic for gretchin.

Mind you, as an ork player I will be happy to get 2 special weapons in a trukk boy mob if the only price is that I need 2 runtherdz to play 11 gretchin in a mob.

Step 1

Let's take the original sentence to be:

"For every ten Gretchin you must take one Runtherd"

Step 2

Restate it so the sentence doesn't begin with a preposition.

'You must take one Runtherd for every ten Gretchin"

Again, this time for the Orks

Step 1

Let's take the original sentence to be:

"For every ten Orks in the mob, one Ork may exchange his slugga or shoota."

Step 2

Restate the sentence

'One Ork may exchange his slugga or shoota for every ten Orks in the mob.'

So, no, applying the 'logic' (aka 'reading skills') does not mean that if one Runtherd is required for every ten Grots, then something bizarre for Ork boys.

If you are going to change the grot's option so that it doesn't begin with a preposition, wouldn't it only make sense to make the orks option begin with one if you are going to try and start substituting? You're missing that component with your logic.

Even if you didn't do that, you are not putting in the entire statement for the orks options, which is "may exchange his slugga/shoota FOR... a big shoota/rokkit launcha."

So then you're final statement for orks would be:


'One Ork may exchange his slugga or shoota for a big shoota/rokkit launcha, for every ten Orks in the mob.'

At which point is not something bizarre at all but makes complete sense.



I would appreciate it if you analyzed my previous post and pointed out exactly where you think I went wrong.

Long post Nurglitch... we posted responses at the same time.

I do see what you are saying and can accept that. I do regret that 40k rules leave this to English interpretation and wish that phrases would be enhanced with the addition of a few words.

"A runtherd may control up to 10 grots." would eliminate the whole need to analyze sentence structure for RAW and RAI interpretation. It would also bring the rules down to a lower level of English knowledge to understand them.

Hymirl wrote:
So in a 29 grot unit,
The first ten mean you have a runtherd.
The second ten mean you have a runtherd.
The next nine aren't third ten and therefore no runtherd allowed, because they're nine and nine isn't ten. (And no, we aren't intrested in any strange and curious values of nine and ten that are equal.)

The way the rule is written it clearly requires 10 grots for you to have a runherd. Not 9, not 1, nor any othe number except 10.

QFT

usernamesareannoying:

Catapulting the propaganda, eh? Good contribution.

just saying i agree with him.

besides.... didnt we have this conversation already? the feeling of deja vu is overwhelming.

Its more valuble a contribution than attempting to rewrite very clear rules and then to bury everything in a pile of overanalysis that serves to do nothing but muddy the water Nurglitch.

It states for every 10. 10 means 10. 9 is not equal to 10 and therefore isn't a high enough number for a runtherd nor a special weapon in a boyz mob.

Why needlessly complicate the matter?

usernamesareannoying:

I know you're saying that you agree with him, but it's kind of pointless just agreeing with him without explaining why you agree with him. Otherwise you're just inconveniencing electrons.

He agrees with me because I've demonstrated a well thought out argument that finishes with the right answer.

Besides, its clear that you're just trying to change the topic in order to avoid having to talk about the point at hand, which would result in you having to admit error... a technique you always use when you've had your argument shot down.

Take out your new plastic gretchin and start sorting them into lines. Put them in rows of ten. "For every ten" add a runtherder. So one at ten, two at twenty, and a third when you hit thirty.

It's the other way around. You must take one Runtherd for every ten Gretchin.

Line up your Runtherds in a line. You can have ten Grots for every Runtherd.

Nurglitch wrote: You must take one Runtherd for every ten Gretchin.
You can have ten Grots for every Runtherd.

So which is it? Because those two statements are exact opposites.

I've already shown how they're the same statement.

No, you haven't, and no, they're not.

The first means that you must take one Runtherd for every ten Grots.
The second means that you may take 10 grots for every Runtherd.

Quite frankly, I think you're either just posting for a reaction, or need more sleep.

I say 29 Grots need 2 Runtherds because Army Builder Says so!

Well, that and the rules :p

Gwar! wrote:I say 29 Grots need 2 Runtherds because Army Builder Says so!

And I'm the rules judge for the 40K files and I'm not entirely sure which interpretation is correct.