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I'll preface this with the assumption that you are using Pedro Kantor, without him, it's a whole different ballgame.

What do you all think about taking a unit of Sternguard(5-6 strong) with 2 lascannons?

They point out cheaper than Devastators with 2 Lascannons at 5 strong and slightly more expensive at 6 strong.

The thought would be to have a decent anti-tank squad that can hold an objective and is a bit better at defending itself against anyone wanting to assault them.

Las cannons are rarely very good... They are great against fast mechanized armies with 10-12 AV vehicles, but even at 13, they lose potency.

My variant of this squad is little different though, as I would merely replace the las with plas cannons.

If, however, you just need a little bit more AT, this may very well be a sound strategy. Positioning will be crucial though, as you will want to take advantage of the sterguard's special issue ammunition, and the lascannons

keep distance in mind with these guys

They get H. Flamers two of them. Thats kind of kick ass. I think Legion of the Damned can get a h. flamer singular but no ther squad can excepting terms.

Las cannons are great for a gunline SM army with pedro.. Take 5 sternguard, give them 2 lascannons and put them in a rhino. Place on objective and enjoy scoring unit with 2 lascannons firing from the rhino.

I've not used em, but MLs seems to be the best choice for a shooty sternguard. Its free and compliments the ammo very well. I have seen the Plasma cannons used with em and they work very well too for a low cost. Both are great cause of the low cost and complimentry roles to the ammo used by the rest of the squad.

Heavy flamer is not terrible either (the 10 points is a tad steep imho) -- but I think that is a completely different type of squad then the one proposed by the OT (best used 10man in rhino or pod).

The other options I think are completely sub-optimal.
-Lascannon -- expensive, not as great in 5ed, different role then the rest of the squad. The las/plas squad is dead, let it rest in peace.
-Heavy Bolter -- not terrible I guess but the ML just outshines it.
-MM -- sternguard can be anti-tank for sure using combi-melta in drop pod or rhino but for stand and shoot they should be more focused on anti-infantry.

Shrike78 wrote:Las cannons are rarely very good... They are great against fast mechanized armies with 10-12 AV vehicles, but even at 13, they lose potency.

Uh, what? This doesn't make any sense at all, the LAScannon is the highest S weapon in the list short of a vindicator?

Shrike78 wrote:My variant of this squad is little different though, as I would merely replace the las with plas cannons.

because plasma cannons are good vs 13? Huh....

I think the SG squad is a great idea W/Kantor.

From experience, I would say Kantor is not very exciting, he isn't very powerful in CC, he doesnt shoot all that well, and is kind of a 200 point hole in the list. Playing him almost mandates that one play SG to take advantage of his special power and the lists he brings are very top heavy. As in not a lot of numbers in them.

But the armys sure look great!

Good luck!

*Edit for quote blocks

What do you all think about taking a unit of Sternguard(5-6 strong) with 2 lascannons?

That's a bad idea.
Sternguard excel when the use their special bolter ammunition, and bolters are usually wasted if they take lascannons.

wuestenfux wrote:
That's a bad idea.
Sternguard excel when the use their special bolter ammunition, and bolters are usually wasted if they take lascannons.

Oh, I know, but they are cheaper than 5 devastators with 2 lascannons (155 to 160) and only slightly more expensive than 6 devs with 2 lascannons (180 to 176). They would be way better when the enemy gets close(shooting or assault). With Pedro they would also be scoring. They also take up an elite slot instead of a heavy support slot(if that matters for your army).

Just bouncing ideas around.

True, but I think the major thing that Sterguard have is there special bolter ammo. If you go with the heavy weapon route, I would choose something that assists in the anti-infantry role that they were designed for.

But, IMHO, bolters were made to be mobile and to rapid-fire and heavy weapons weaken the units mobility and role.

JohnOSpencer wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
That's a bad idea.
Sternguard excel when the use their special bolter ammunition, and bolters are usually wasted if they take lascannons.

Oh, I know, but they are cheaper than 5 devastators with 2 lascannons (155 to 160) and only slightly more expensive than 6 devs with 2 lascannons (180 to 176). They would be way better when the enemy gets close(shooting or assault). With Pedro they would also be scoring. They also take up an elite slot instead of a heavy support slot(if that matters for your army).

Just bouncing ideas around.

Two lascannon just doesnt cut it for anti-tank. You need a higher weight of fire to really have an impact. Using sternguard may be cheaper but you just dont get enough shots if you use them as your primary anti-tank. The best way to get anti-tank im SM lists is to have it on your tactical squads who get lascannon and meltas very cheaply.

Sternguard are best used aggressively and at medium range, two things that using lascannon goes against. If you want them to have anti-tank ability then give them combi-meltas, otherwise just leave them to be fantastic at killing everything else.

(Also never give them any sort of flamer. They have ammo that ignores cover anyway, so while a template may make them slightly better against horse, they become much much worse against everything else)

If you really want to take out a tank.. 5 combi-flamers & 5 combi meltas & a drop pod. Allows you to pretty much secure a boom-roll against a tank when dropping in as close as you like aswell as being able to follow through to deal with crazy-bum 30+ gaunt hordes effectively. And being able to do both the same turn w/ combat sqauds.. if its ever needed. Or, I guess, anti-TEQ/MC with either massed flamer fire/melta for the former, just melta for the latter.

Otherwise leave the anti-tank to annhilator preds, tacticals, drednoughts & allow the sternguard to focous on the guys vanillia sterns can deal effectively with, troops.

Augustus wrote:

Shrike78 wrote:Las cannons are rarely very good... They are great against fast mechanized armies with 10-12 AV vehicles, but even at 13, they lose potency.

Uh, what? This doesn't make any sense at all, the LAScannon is the highest S weapon in the list short of a vindicator? No... sorry, my fault for not being clear about that.. i was merely pointing out that LAS has a significantly lower chance of busting armor than the traditional "every guy has a combi-melta" sternguard squad... though obviously, if he wants a gunline army, his proposed squad would be better.

Shrike78 wrote:My variant of this squad is little different though, as I would merely replace the las with plas cannons.

because plasma cannons are good vs 13? Huh.... NO! Again, my apologies for not being clear about that, but my point with that section of the argument was that I believe gunline sternguard are better suited for anti-infantry work as opposed to anti-vehicle work, because of their special ammunition

I think some of you are missing the point here. Yes, there are other good options for AT, and the proposed unit "wastes" the special ammo of the sternguard, but it's not a bad idea really. Does taking a squad of devestators "waste" special ammo because you could get sternguard with heavy weapons for the same price? He wants a few extra heavy guns, and this seems like a fairly reasonable to get them.

Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen the rest of the OP's list, so maybe this fits in well. It's not something so terrible to be dismissed entirely (see vespids, scourges et al), and seems a decent, outside the box approach to the problem.

If you have the Elite slots to spare....go for it.

If your sole concern is getting cheap lascannons, give your tac squads Razorbacks with TL Las or Las/Plas. 150 points for two tanks that mount BS4 weaponry with either rerolls to hit or bonus S7 shots. Razors will be immune to small arms fire, can move and shoot, will prove more resilient to close combat, and can form the Choo Choo Train for 3+ cover saves.

So to the original question, yes, giving Sternguard lascannons is a bad idea. It wastes their special ammo, they die as easily as a "normal" MEQ model costing 9 points fewer, and for cheaper points you could have vehicle-mounted lascannons that prove far more effective.

Razorbacks aren't a great option if you don't have a lot of other armor on the table, though. If you've got a infantry horde going, these guys might work out. What's the rest of the list look like?

John, if you're looking for cheap lascannons you are right, Sternguard are a way to go. Buy a squad of 10 with a rhino. they can fire from inside the rhino. Combat squad them.

This works very well if you have Pedro in the list as the 5 with the 2 lascannons can sit back in their own personal bunker and hold the objective while the other 5 can be more aggressive.

I find most people are too aggressive with the 10 man sternguard and this tactic is solid.

frgsinwntr wrote:John, if you're looking for cheap lascannons you are right, Sternguard are a way to go. Buy a squad of 10 with a rhino. they can fire from inside the rhino. Combat squad them.

This works no better than simply having two lascannon razorbacks and in any situation requiring movement, it's considerably worse.

Points cost:
Razorbacks win

Mobility:
Razorbacks win

Resilience:
Razorbacks win

Unless you absolutely need to have every single squad in your army un-combat-squadded and in their own rhino, Razorbacks are a cheaper and more effective firebase than a Sternguard squad with las in a rhino.

sourclams wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:John, if you're looking for cheap lascannons you are right, Sternguard are a way to go. Buy a squad of 10 with a rhino. they can fire from inside the rhino. Combat squad them.

This works no better than simply having two lascannon razorbacks and in any situation requiring movement, it's considerably worse.

It's hard to argue this point, that's for sure.

I put two squads of 5 sternguard in my Pedro Kantor list and left them completely vanilla with a drop pod. I, like a lot of people have said, would rather them have combi-meltas than lascannons (especially since I never seem to hit with my lascannons). However John, I see how you're trying to kill three birds with one stone (heavy weapons + scoring unit + close combat capable). Interesting idea.

I don't think he was going for close combat capable, with A2 the Sternguard are merely a unit that could get assaulted and have a marginal chance of winning.

Ok some points.

sourclams wrote:

This works no better than simply having two lascannon razorbacks and in any situation requiring movement, it's considerably worse.

<snip>....Razorbacks win

I disagree sourclams. Razorbacks are still Armour 11 coffins and the TL lascannon is relatively expensive. They appear good on paper but if your list relies on thiose for lascannon your opponent can exploit this and strip you of lascannon quickly.

Razorbacks are good but I would far sooner mount heavy bolters on razorbacks and use them to supplement anti horde and choose to give lasdcannon to the marines, wasted bolter shots accepted.



Still - now answering the thread in general - people are comparting lascannon sternguiard with lascannon Devastators. This is fallacious because of the premium Devastators pay for lascannon, then as now missile launchers and heavy bolters belong in Dev squads, lascannon belong in tactical squads.

Now when you compare tactical combat squads (we will ignore the assaulty half) against sternguard things look a lot less favourable for thre sternguard. This plus the diversion from the role of massed one shot melta or bolter ammo, plus the cost of Cantor to make sternguard scoring and a lot of pioints are tied up that can instead go into split 10 man tactical squads with lascannon and Razorbacks to taste.

Steelmage99 wrote:If you have the Elite slots to spare....go for it.

No.

Lascannons lost an edge due to cover saves and the new armor penetration table.

without a list I'm not sure this can really be answered.

It seems entirely possible that in your specific list this kind of makes sense, and may be better than a tac squad with a razorback, points wise and scoring wise - but 5 tac marines in a TL lascannon razorback is only 10 points more than the sternguard unmounted. It also seems possible that you really just want a third squad of sternguard drop podding or rhinoing up the board and using its special ammo/combi-meltas.

I also think that lascannons are overrated in 5e. Yes, the vindicator (and the conversion beamer and ordinance) are the only things stronger than a lascannon for SM, but strength is not the only thing that matters for armor penatration. Meltaguns and multi-meltas are better if you can get in range...and getting in range is much easier. But I can see that you want this unit to be able to be effective sitting back on an objective and firing away.

John's concern is how to get lascannons into his list as cheaply as possible. This is going from his original post. The options being discussed are Sternguard with two lascannons, or Devastators with two lascannons.
I brought up the option of taking two Razorbacks armed with TL Las or Las/Plas as a 3rd option.

Orlanth wrote:Razorbacks are still Armour 11 coffins and the TL lascannon is relatively expensive. They appear good on paper but if your list relies on thiose for lascannon your opponent can exploit this and strip you of lascannon quickly.

AV11 versus 5 MEQs. "But marines get cover saves!" put one Razorback nose to tail of the other. Now you've got one AV11 vehicle with a 3+ cover save to anything in front arc. Survivability: Razorback Win

2 TL las or Las/Plas versus 2 Las. Firepower: Razorback Win

Razors move and shoot, Sternguard don't. Mobility: Razorback Win

150 points versus 155. Points cost: Razorback Win

He wants the unit to be scoring as well. That's the main reason he's considering it (in a pedro kantor army). I think it's obviously correct that the two razorbacks are better. But they don't score without something in them, which makes them more expensive.

sourclams wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:John, if you're looking for cheap lascannons you are right, Sternguard are a way to go. Buy a squad of 10 with a rhino. they can fire from inside the rhino. Combat squad them.

This works no better than simply having two lascannon razorbacks and in any situation requiring movement, it's considerably worse.

Points cost:
Razorbacks win

Mobility:
Razorbacks win

Resilience:
Razorbacks win

Unless you absolutely need to have every single squad in your army un-combat-squadded and in their own rhino, Razorbacks are a cheaper and more effective firebase than a Sternguard squad with las in a rhino.

Making use of cover:
Sternguard wins.

Scoring status:
Sternguard wins.

Being able to lose the extra Lascannon to a single shot:
Sternguard wins.

Not necessarily disagreeing with everything you say, just pointing out some things you missed in your desire to promote the Razorback.

Edit. Whoops. Seems I missed you wanted to buy two Razorbacks.

sourclams wrote:John's concern is how to get lascannons into his list as cheaply as possible. This is going from his original post. The options being discussed are Sternguard with two lascannons, or Devastators with two lascannons.
I brought up the option of taking two Razorbacks armed with TL Las or Las/Plas as a 3rd option.

Add tacticals as option four.

sourclams wrote:
AV11 versus 5 MEQs. "But marines get cover saves!" put one Razorback nose to tail of the other. Now you've got one AV11 vehicle with a 3+ cover save to anything in front arc. Survivability: Razorback Win

You need to kill several marines before you get to remove a lascannon. First unsaved hit on the Razorback makes the kill, a glance can reliably stop it shooting, a penetrate will normally silence the gun for good, one way or another.
Also only one Razorback gets the cover save benefit, the other just gets smashed. Survivability: Razorback Fail.

sourclams wrote:
2 TL las or Las/Plas versus 2 Las. Firepower: Razorback Win

The Razorbacks will die first, at least one of them will. You might start with paper firepower that is better, but dont expect to have it on turn 2 unless you have a lot of distractions. Note that as you deployed only one razorback has a cover save, the blind spots might prevent you from combining fire against targets in front of you so your applied firepower is actually far less. Firepower: Razorback Fail.

sourclams wrote:
Razors move and shoot, Sternguard don't. Mobility: Razorback Win

Lascannon dont really need to relocate much, 36" is good enough. Now if you need to relocate to avoid fire rather than to set up a new firing position Razorbacks lose out because it is difficult to provuide full concealment and thus reduce arcs of incoming fire. granted foot marines cannot relocate and fire, but you trade move and fire for move and survive. that is a good trade. Still such occassions are rare, in practice you position your lascannon to have a good cover of fire to last the game, 36" is enough for that.

sourclams wrote:
150 points versus 155. Points cost: Razorback Win

I would rather have 155pts invested that keeps working than 150pts give as VP/KP to my opponent.

sourclams wrote:
Normally I'd agree with you, but John wants lascannons, not heavy bolters.

You are misusing Razorbacks, if lascannon platforms alone are what is needed Razorbacks are no answer. The trouble is Razorbacks are not much use unless deployed cheaply. If you really need the lascannon firepower take tacticals, sternguard even devastators, leave Razorbacks alone. The Razorback is a means of:

A. Adding a cheap heavy bolter turret that fires independently and reliably.
B. Transporting the assault half of a tactical squad or equivalent.

Heavy bolter Razorbacks work because you have plenty of firepower of the type in the army, the standard marine bolter for one. So there is no especial value in quick targetting Razorbacks to remove an arm from the SM army. heavy bolters are also cheap and in the chassis is worth the price. Razorbacks can afford to be fragile if they are secondary targets, lascannon razorbacks are not secondary targets. Especially if you rely on them for anti-tank firepower rather than backing up other lascannon elsewhere. So to have a chancethey must be further backed up by higher priority vehicle targets such as Vindicators and Dreadnoughts. Here lies the problem to make your lascannon Razorbacks ignorable you need to pay for - Razorbacks, lascannon infantry and Vindies/dreadnoughts. I suppose it can be done but that looks to me like inefficient list building to me.

I really like my Razorbacks, and was happy to spam them in the old codex lists with six man squads. Orignally just as a background idea for a mechanised list, however I found the vehicles worthwhile because I had so many tanks on the table the Razorbacks survived. However I did not and do not metagame. Your post indicates sing lascannon Razorbacks as a competetive edge and for efficiency, sorry this just is not so. For those who only play with units that are "worth it" Razorbacks only just made it back onto the can-take list at all in 5th, and only heavy bolter Razorbacks need apply.

I didn't really have an army in mind(right now, I'm plannin one), this was more conceptual.

The point was to have a fire support squad that I don't have to babysit, that could sit on an Objective and actually hold it with some anti-tank firepower and I noticed that Sternguard are cheaper than similarly armed Devs.

Sourclams: I was actually thinking of giving the Sternguard a Razorback with twin las(I like to keep the army mobile). I'd like to give my Tac Squads Razorbacks but they are 10 strong and I give them Rhinos. Multi-Melta Attack Bikes are a favorite, but I like the range sometimes.

With Pedro I support the idea of a 2 las cannon 10 man squad with a razorback. However you are still paying 75 points for 3 bodies that prob will not be using special ammo. With the exception of range and effectivness against monoliths melta beats lascannons hands down.

I run Salamanders and I'm working on a droping sternguard list to really take advantage of the vulkan twin linking rule.

10 sternguard with 2 heavy flamers, 2 combi flamers, and 6 combi meltas drop poded and combat squaded can take out 2 units of armor on turn 1.

If the SG that are armed with lascannons still keep their bolters then I think it is a good ploy. You still can rapid fire every Marine in the squad plus the two lascannons are a bit of an insurance policy that would make your overall build more robust. I don't have the codex in front of me right now so I'm not sure if the lascannon toting SG are able to keep their bolters as well but if I had to guess I would say they do.

G