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Well I've been playing 40k for a while, and I want to try something new. Seeing as many of the guys at the hobby store play WFB, I'd like to give it a go. Choosing the army(armies) I'm interested in hasn't been very difficult, nor has it been exactly a walk in the park. HE and DE are my two primary choices for starting. What I like about them is the variety they have, as well as the regimented, rank and file look of their soldiers. Now for the specifics:

I like HE because of their clean, ornate, "good guy" look. Their special unit choices are very appealing, and their knights and dragons are primary attractions. Their look is very proud and noble, of courageous warriors and honor. I also find their backstory pretty neat.

As for the DE, I have mixed feelings. I really like the darker colors of their armor, and the spikes and blades scream danger. Cold One Knights seem extremley neat; who wouldn't want to ride one into battle? The thing I don't like is their cruel, malicious behavior. I haven't really been a fan of cold-hearted races, and DE are no exception, with their emphasis on slaves and dark holidays like Death Night. Other than their malelovence, I'd probably try them out in a heartbeat.

Anyway, I've got some questions: How do each of them play on the tabletop? Is one more difficult to master than the other? Which ons is more competitive? And last of all, which is simply more fun?

Hey, welcome to the forums.

HE and DE, on a cursory glance, are very similar on a unit by unit basis. Most of their units are "mirror units" in that they're good/evil versions of the other, ie. Swordmasters = Executioners, Phoenix Guard = Black Guard, etc. Both have "fragile but elite" units, and are lightly armored, so you can't be reckless and you can't really afford to suffer too many casualties. Both armies can make fairly competent lists focusing on Magic, Shooting or CC (usually not all at the same time though). Both armies suffer from low T (relative), low armor, and low strength which means that you will not want to be mired in combat ever - you need to make sure that you break your opponents on the first turn of combat, or at least hold for a turn so that another unit can come and help kill off the enemy unit.

Now for differences:
HE have the army-wide Always Strike First rule, which means that they'll nearly always get to hit the enemy in CC even if the enemy charges them. This usually means that you don't have to worry _too_ much about getting charges off (excepting chariots and knights) and generally opponents will be wary of charging into your units without support. HE's are very much a Jack-of-all-trades army in that they can compete fairly effectively in all phases, but usually must focus on one to really be a threat. Their characters are fairly fragile, though, so don't expect a HE Lord to be able to go toe-to-toe with most other enemy characters. They are support for your troops more than anything else. Star Dragons add quite a bit of punch to an HE list, but they are quite expensive points-wise, and are still quite vulnerable to cannon fire. Of the two, HE is by far easier to learn the game with, and ASF gives you some (but not too much more) room for mistakes.

DE have the army-wide Hatred rules which means that they'll always get more attacks in in CC. Stats-wise, they're exactly like the HEs, but they have some advantages over their HE cousins. First off, they have better/cheaper shooting. Their Repeater Crossbows have shorter range, but can fire twice per turn and give an armor save penalty. They have access to relatively cheap flyer units that are good at hunting down warmachines. They have easier access to Monsters (notably the Hydra) which is a real pain for most armies to deal with. Their magic is FAR more lethal than HE mages can pump out, and with sorceress rules, they can pump out more magic in general. Assassins can be bought for any infantry unit, and are a pain for any army to deal with. Some assassin builds can wreck entire units by themselves. DE characters have easier access to better armor than HE characters, and in general, tend to be much deadlier in combat. Depending on the build, it could require some significant amount of finesse or could be pretty straightforward.

Overall, the DE are considered to be a Top Tier army. While not over-powering, they are quite capable of dominating a battle-field with Magic, Shooting, or Close Combat. HE, on the other hand lack some options to make them regularly able to compete against the harder, tournie level lists.

In terms of fun, it's relative, really. Depends on how you like to play, and also what kind of lists you bring to the table. I'll say this: I've definitely enjoyed playing against DE a lot.

Hmmm...
When you put it all that way, it sounds like DE are better off then HE. I still can't decide, though! Part of me wants to collect HE for their visually stunning models, to learn WFB easier, and as well as being the typical protagonists. The other part of me wants DE because of their competitive style and vicious creatures. I'm used to playing more defensivley than agressivley, though. I'm fond of both army's calvary units, as well.
I think you've pointed out quite a few advantages of DE; are there any more advantages to playing HE?

HE's have good march-blocker/mage/war-machine hunters in the form of Great Eagles, which at 50 points a piece, are pretty worthwhile.

Another big advantage of High Elves is that they have a modified Army Organization Chart compared to most other armies. Namely, the core requirements (basic infantry - archers/spearelves) is always 1 less than other armies. So, below 2000 points, you're only required one core choice, whereas everyone else needs to have at least 2. At 2000+ points, only 2 core choices are required, as opposed to 3. In a similar vein, your special and rare choices (where the heavy-hitters of the list are) are increased, so you're allowed more of them per point-tier (I believe it's +2 special and 2x rares per tier). Granted, in the case of rares, your only choices are Repeater Bolt Throwers or Great Eagles, and you have to buy them individually, so the "extra allotment" isn't very different from most other lists. GW did make an attempt to focus on the fact that this army is "elite", which in a way, I think worked out. In this vein, you can take a lot more of the "fun" units in the army book than most other armies.

On a unit v unit comparison (that is, one HE unit vs. it's DE counter-part), most of the HE units, imo, are better (notable exceptions being archers v crossbows and HE Shadow Warriors v DE Shades). It's namely when you start adding in assassins/characters/monsters/magic that it tends to sway toward the DE list. A lot of HE magic items are simply not that stellar, and those that are are somewhat high-costed (my opinion), whereas the DE tend to have generally good magic items all around at reasonable (some cases I think a little too reasonable) points. Also, In general, I feel like the HE tend to play a bit more defensively than offensively - though again, this depends on your list.

You could always buy HE models and Count-As DE! (this is where the "mirror units" is brilliant).

I see. I rather like the "elite" and "defensive" aspects of the HE, since it kinda suits my style.

Another army I'm interested in is the WoC, for a change of pace. The models are brilliant, especially the mounted lords. I've read that their playstyle is pretty strightforward; charging right into the enemy. I'd just be concerned of their resistance to magic and war machines.

And yet another army to catch my eye would be Bretonnians. I've always had a love and interest of knights when I was younger, and this army is really the classic medival force. I've heard they also have a very basic playstyle, like "point-and-click."

If you could offer some info about these armies like you did the HE, then I'll compare them all, and with luck, I'll finally decide on a starting force for my intro to WFB!

Glad my ramblin' was helpful. .

Sadly, I'm not terribly familiar with WoC or Brets. Someone else will have to fill you in on their workings.

Heh, that's fine. Thanks a bunch for your help!
I'll just sit around and wait for another player to come forth and share their knowledge!

These days in WFB circles, people generally consider DE to be a superior army to HE. They are more powerful on the whole, and at the same time offer more variety - there`s many effective choices to make a successful or competitive army. They compete in all phases with good magic, shooting, and combat units.

However, I think it`s worth investing in an army that you`ll enjoy in the gaming, painting and background aspects. You mentioned that you like the idea behind the high elves better, with them being noble and pround, while at the same time you don`t like the cold-heartedness of the dark elves. In my mind, this should be reason enough for you to choose the High Elves over the Dark elves.

The high elves are still a competitive army and are fun to play. Lots of beautiful units, and they look fantastic with that `regimented`look you enjoy. They are tactically balanced and can form many different types of armies. I think they`ll offer more of a tactical challenge and a better introduction to WFB (since they can be strong in any phase) than either WoC or Bretts, which are indeed more point-and-click than the elves. Obviously it`s not that simple, but hopefully you get my drift.

So from what you`ve expressed in your first post, I think that the high elves are the right army for you.

I hope that helps!

Thanks for your input! I too, think I'll enjoy gaming with them more. Competitive, noble, and regimented are all aspects I like about the HE. So now I think I'll do some research on their units and see what roles they're all suited for.

I say play what you like. If you like the look and fluff of an army go with it. I like the whole anger issue the DE have and the fluff that goes behind em. I just finished reading Malkith, the sundering and must say i love those DE even more then i did before. I had some major issues with my DE when i first started playing them against my friends HE, plus he always had awsome builds. I think HE would be a better starter army because ull get some pretty good wins out the gates with em.

That's some pretty good advice :]
I'll be going with HE as my starter force. I love their fluff and looks, and seem liek a good army to introduce my to WFB. The HE dragon model looks like a real treat to paint up, and I could never pass up the chance to include such a model in my army! Of course, I'll probably long to buy the WoC lord on juggernaut and paint him up to display and show off in painting competitions.

Congrats on starting on HE! They're quite fun. Again, they're not quite Top Tier in terms of tournament play, but they're quite good for casual environments and look quite swell on the tabletop.

Any idea what kind of list you're thinking of running?

First of all, I'll need to get the HE book (as well as the WFB rulebook!) Based on some lists I've read, I think I'll make either a balanced list with some of everything, or a calvary-heavy army. I'm also interested in chariots, but I'm not exactlly sure what the differences are between the lion chariots and the Tiranoc chariots aside from the weapons each have.

Night Goblins + Fanatics = Good times.

Aristocrap wrote:First of all, I'll need to get the HE book (as well as the WFB rulebook!) Based on some lists I've read, I think I'll make either a balanced list with some of everything, or a calvary-heavy army. I'm also interested in chariots, but I'm not exactlly sure what the differences are between the lion chariots and the Tiranoc chariots aside from the weapons each have.

Tiranoc chariots are cheaper, and have an extra inch of movement (2 on the charge). They're not as durable, and don't hit _as_ hard, so you'll be relying on impact hits to see them get through a fight. They have longbows if you happen to get a chance to shoot.

Lion chariots are much more expensive and slightly slower, but are a little more resilient, cause fear, and hit much harder on the charge, and subsequent turns.

I see, so which one would be best suited for a balanced army? If I wanted to collect a large army of cavalry, I guess the Tiranoc chariot would prove useful because you could get more of them in there? I always liked the look of the lion chariot, and I don't plan on having all that many, maybe 2.

Personally I like Swordmasters, Spearmen, and Bolt Throwers. Regardless of overall theme I feel that you should include these. Swordmasters with a tooled up character can compete with just about anything. Spearmen in good sized blocks can last a turn or two. A couple of Bolt throwers can wittle down units nicely. The HE magic is nice, but you either have to go all magic, or just scroll caddies.

You don't really have any "throw away" units other than eagles (since every model is expensive). So use one in tandem with your lion chariot. A Tiranoc and Lion chariot work best charging together or supporting units. I would suggest playing a few games with one of each to start with so that you get a feel of how effective they are.

Dragon Princes are a little pricey, but a unit of five on the charge has 11 S5 attacks (usually hitting on 3s). Make sure you get the charge with them.

Since you're moving over from 40k the movement phase will be an issue for you. Games are won and lost in the movement phase so make sure you learn it early.

Good luck man, and may you make Ulthuan proud.

The Wood Elves are saddened by your choice