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60pts for the former, 30pts for the latter.

You do gain WS5 & BS5 which, on a drednought, is kinda scary. Likewise you get Extra armor included in that 30pt upgrrade although not mentioning the change in armements as its a fair trade so that point is moot.

What kinda math-hammer based action can be done with these two options? Higher strength weaponary required to glance/penetrate vs % chance of x after x.

My current musing go along the lines of, if you roll an explode result, another explode result (on a re-roll) would only come up every 1 in 36 times. etc etc.

Also the more fortuetous Holo-fields which roll both die at the same time, allowing you to pick the lowest. . . as a side note of interest?

I personally think Venerable should be the same cost as Ironclads. I'd never field a Venerable in a competitive list and here is why:

A venerable base cost is 165 points, or 60 points more then a 105 point dreadnought. What you get for 60 points: +1 to WS, BS, and the reroll ability. Extra armor and anything but a storm bolter & multimelta (or twin linked heavy flamer) cost more.

Nearly weapon arm the venerable has available are twin linked, with the exception of the multimelta or assault cannon. If you run a salamanders list like I do you'll get the multi melta twin linked anyway. So that +1 BS does not really help all that much unless you are using a non twin linked weapon.

The +1 to the WS only really helps against attacks made on WS4 units, where you'll need 3's. Those WS4 units still need 4's to hit you in CC and you still needs 4's to hit anything WS5 +. Plus, in order to get into close combat we'll need to upgrade our venerable to extra armor so on the chance he gets a stunned result he can still move the next turn.

So far we are not getting much of a bang for our 60 points. But then comes the reroll effect. Yes, you can make me reroll my dice, but do I care? Generally not. In general the reroll will only be used on a result of a 5 or 6 on either chart, a result that will only occur 33% of the time. Assuming only 1 shot got through your only running a 66% probability that a 5 or 6 will not be rolled the second time. Of course if the shot is AP1 this drops to 50%. The other factor to consider is that even if the dread does not manage to get killed it will either be unable to shoot, shoot & move, lose a weapon, or become immobilized.

So you are paying 60 points for an upgrade that keeps your dread alive, but limited in another fashion, +1 BS for most twin linked weapon systems, and +1 WS which can only be reliable if you spend 15 more points for extra armor.

Currently I'll generally field two regular dreadnoughts with multimeltas and extra armor for 120 each. I've got better places to put 60 a venerable would cost me.

The ironclad might be one of them. At 30 points more then a regular dreadnought you get 13 AV, a hammer, move through cover, extra armor, and two DCCWs(including the hammer). Sure your multimelta is now reduced to a melta gun, but you were going to drop pod the ironclad anyways, right? At 170 for the ironclad & the drop pod you are only 5 points more then a bone stock venerable.

AV 13 with extra armor does wonders. All those strength 6 weapons (like krak grenades) can't hurt you unless attacking you from behind. For the strength 7 and above weapons glancing or penetrating hits to your armor just decreased by over 16%

The extra armor means that you ignore the stunned results, while the move through cover can keep you headed to assault that squad or vehicle.

The Hammer means you can now destroy a vehicle on a glancing roll in close combat as well as a better chance of destroying it with a penetrating hit. Having the hammer along with the other DCCW means 3 base attacks, it also means that if an arm is destroyed you don't lose the DCCW that ignores armor saves and attacks at strength 10 until the second arm is taken out.

While I still field my regular dreads, ironclads would be a great choice for someone wanting to play an aggressive marine army. One thing that seems to work well is drop poding the ironclads in on first turn and the using smoke launchers to help survivability. At 165 points I doubt I'll ever field a venerable.

Dang....

Well, I guess that settles it!

-A.

I would go with both a venerable and two ironclads. SM venerables for vanilla lists are very expensive.

G

Mk..@ GBF: How often have the ability to re-roll and/or its BS5 on the assault cannons and/or its WS5 in CC provided invaluble?

Have you ever noticed people not targetting the venerable dred purely because it gets to choose a re-roll?

& @ Asugradinwa, very comphrensive, cheers

Venerable Dreadnoughts are best for long range fire support Dreadnoughts, while regular Dreadnoughts are close range fire support, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts are for mixing it up in assaults.

Different units, different roles, though to be fair this is more apparent for Ironclads than other Dreadnoughts.