Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After reading the last thread on Twin Linked Template weapons, I cracked out my rulebook and had a thorough reading of them.

It struck me the wording of the rule was a little odd.

Page 31 wrote:Twin-linked template weapons are fired just like a single weapon, but they can re-roll the dice to wound.
When fired against a vehicle. you may re-roll thearmour penetration dice instead.

Compare that to the wording for Lighting Claws:

A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound.

Does this mean twin linked flamers must re-roll ALL their dice or just the ones that failed?

I know its petty and stupid (and I actually think its just the failed ones, before accusations of asshattery fly about) but It's just something that I thought might come up. By the strict letter of the law, how does it work?

I don't have the rule book in front of me...

But I think the twin-link entry before the template portion states you can re-roll any misses. Then the template portion states the re-rolls apply to the to-wound roll rather than the to-hit roll.

I'd take that to say that twin-linked template weapons get to re-roll all failed to-wound rolls, not all rolls.

Page 31 wrote:Twin-linked template weapons are fired just like a single weapon, but they can re-roll the dice to wound.
When fired against a vehicle. you may re-roll thearmour penetration dice instead.

The key in this one, is that it says can re-roll dice to wound.

A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound.

Here it is changed to any failed wounds. The difference is minute, but suppose you had a rending flamer? (I hope that doesn't actually exist) or you only wanted to kill 3/10 guardsmen, so you had something to melee later. The options are a bit of a stretch, but giving you a choice to re-roll or not makes you have that crazy option in the event of a strange situation.

At least that's my veiw on it.

its just bad wording its reroll failed wounds

piezzz wrote:its just bad wording its reroll failed wounds

That's hardly a convincing argument...

It makes sense that the rerolls to wound for a tl flamer would work exactly like the reroll to hit for a normal twin linked weapon, that way the rule remains consistent. While it is a confusing omission, I think that it was intended to be exactly like any other twinlinked weapons, with rerolls for failed rolls. Otherwise, the rule is just inconsistent, which would just be needlessly confusing.

Iboshi2 is correct. Twin-linked Template weapons can re-roll the dice to wound and may re-roll the dice for armour penetration. This means that the player has the option of re-rolling any of the dice that they've rolled. They could even, if they were stupid, re-roll the successes.

@ fatal-GRACE

- Which isn't a convincing argument either.

Nurglitch wrote:Iboshi2 is correct. Twin-linked Template weapons can re-roll the dice to wound and may re-roll the dice for armour penetration. This means that the player has the option of re-rolling any of the dice that they've rolled. They could even, if they were stupid, re-roll the successes.

I think the RAI was for the dice that failed to wounds to be re-rolled.

The RAW on the other hand looks to say they take the results of the first roll, or roll all the dice again. I don't think it allows you to pick and choose dice, if it did it would say any dice may be re-rolled, for it to just be failed dice much like the lighting claws I think it would have to said dice that failed to wound. the twin linked rule is talking about none templete weapons and refers to hit rolls. templetes auto hit so they have their own special twin-linked rule described in a sub section under twin-linked.

You know, in Yu-Gi-Oh! at least we knew tht half the cards didn't do exactly what they said. It saddens me that in 40k everything gets taken so literally, even if it's obviously not how the rules were intended to work. What's the point in nit-picking that much? :(

Because its not nitpicking at all.

The argument makes sense and has a significant outcome on the weapon(although an albeit hardly used one).

It's either you re-roll the failed wounds, or you re-roll ALL the dice, which could actually have a worse outcome than the first full roll.

Raw looks to be re-roll all the dice.

I know there are instances of re-roll rules where you do have to re-roll both success and fails, but arn't those all in older codexes? Correct me if i'm wrong but i think in the latest edition the precedent atleast is that you get to choose. Yes, i know its not a RAW argument but precendents to matter for RAI.

Also remember that sometimes GW uses a British variant and says "Dice" when they mean "die". So in this case the grammar is unclear as to whether "dice" means "a die, or any number of dice that you select" or whether "dice" means "all of the dice".

Ludovic wrote:Also remember that sometimes GW uses a British variant and says "Dice" when they mean "die". So in this case the grammar is unclear as to whether "dice" means "a die, or any number of dice that you select" or whether "dice" means "all of the dice".

Being British myself (I only live in Ireland, I'm not Irish) I can tell you, you are utterly wrong. You may be British (I don't know, your flag says US) but if you are, you've been there too long mate.

We certainly use "Die" as the singular. Isn't it the US that uses dice for a single die? (I honestly dunno, but thats what we are told here, so it could perhaps be GW trying to American-Proof the books )

Narlix wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Iboshi2 is correct. Twin-linked Template weapons can re-roll the dice to wound and may re-roll the dice for armour penetration. This means that the player has the option of re-rolling any of the dice that they've rolled. They could even, if they were stupid, re-roll the successes.

I think the RAI was for the dice that failed to wounds to be re-rolled.

The RAW on the other hand looks to say they take the results of the first roll, or roll all the dice again. I don't think it allows you to pick and choose dice, if it did it would say any dice may be re-rolled, for it to just be failed dice much like the lighting claws I think it would have to said dice that failed to wound. the twin linked rule is talking about none templete weapons and refers to hit rolls. templetes auto hit so they have their own special twin-linked rule described in a sub section under twin-linked.

AffliKtion wrote:Because its not nitpicking at all.

The argument makes sense and has a significant outcome on the weapon(although an albeit hardly used one).

It's either you re-roll the failed wounds, or you re-roll ALL the dice, which could actually have a worse outcome than the first full roll.

Raw looks to be re-roll all the dice.

These are both wrong with regards to being forced to re-roll ALL the dice, the fact that you roll multiple to wound dice at once is just for speeds sake, the grouping of dice is not a real aspect of the game and rule that uses the more ambiguous phrase of simply "the dice to wound" means that you are definitely entitled to pick and choose amongst whatever group you consider to be eligible for re-rolls, be that failed wounds or any and all dice. The rule never states that it is referring to all the dice as a single group and as such you should not assume that's what it means.

I love how you say not to assume, yet you are assuming that you can choose which dice you want to re-roll.

No where in there does it say 'choose' or 're-rolled failed dice'. It says, ' but they can re-roll the dice to wound'. Now its up to us to decide if 'the dice' is all-inclusive, or selective. RAW is all-inclusive considering 'the dice' means exactly that.

No. "All the dice" is inclusive. "The dice" is simply plural.

Yes, you can re-roll all the dice, but that does not make it an all or nothing situation. It just means that all of the dice, each of the dice, have that option.

You need to add words to the rule for it to mean 'all' of the dice.

Hmm, yes Coredump thats actually an elegent way of looking at it.

So you can choose to re-roll between "None" and "All" of the dice. I like it