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Which bike army is better in your opinion?

Marines Advantages
T4(5) per model. This makes them 50% tougher vs. bolter fire. (1/9 chance of death vs. 1/6)
Marine Bikers can take melta-guns
Master of the Forge on a bike with conversion beamer is nasty
Bolters can fire at 24", where cats are stuck at 12" range.
Can beat IG, Tau, or other non-HTH troops in assault.

Eldar Advantages
Farseer and Warlock death squad
Shuriken Cannons are cheap upgrades
GJB is slightly cheaper than marine bike (3 pts)
Jetbikes can move 6" in assult phase : Their 50% faster

Could marine bikers compete?

I personally think that either can be competitive as long as you think carefully about your support.

With the Dark Angel list, you should pay attention to make sure your not outnumbered by to much, and to take advantage of your scout rules and your deathwing assault.

With White Scars, you should have a good selection of assault as well, such as land raiders with assault terminators, with the outflank rule that should work great.

I like the jet bikes for the eldar as long as you field big squads and have some destructor warlocks for the anti-horde shooting.

Here is a little math estimates that Ive been doing in comparing just regular troops from each squad.
Take the following two units. They are close enough in cost to make reasonable comparisons.
Marine Bikers : 295pts
1 Sergeant w/TL Bolters
5 Bikers w/TL Bolters
2 Bikers w/Plasma Guns + TL Bolters
1 Attack bike w/Multi-Melta

Eldar Bike Squad : 291pts
6 GJB w/TL Shuriken Cats
3 GJB w/Shuriken Cannon
Warlock w/Conceal+SS



Light Targets at Long Range
Firing from 24", both units open fire on a squad of Ork Shootas
The Eldar fire with 3 shuriken cannons. (9 dice)
With a BS of a 3, 1/2 will hit (9/2 hits)
With a STR of 6, 5/6 will wound (45/12 wounds)
There is no save, so 45/12 orks die. (3-4 orks)

The Marines fire 6 TL Bolters
With a BS of a 4, 8/9 will hit (48/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (16/6 wounds)
There is no save, so 16/6 orks die. (2-3 orks)

The Marines fire 2 Plasma Guns
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (4/3 hits)
With a STR of 7, 5/6 will wound (20/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 20/18 orks die. (1-2 orks)

The Marines fire 1 Multi-Melta
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (2/3 hits)
With a STR of 8, 5/6 will wound (10/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 10/18 orks die. (0-1 orks)

The eldar kill a total of 45/12 orks on average.
The marines kill a total of 52/12 orks on average.
At long distance the marines pack a slightly bigger punch vs. soft targets.




Hard Targets at Long Range
Firing from 24", both units open fire on a squad of MEQ
The Eldar fire with 3 shuriken cannons.
With a BS of a 3, 1/2 will hit (9/2 hits)
With a STR of 6, 5/6 will wound (45/12 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, 2/3 will save (15/12 wounds)

The Marines fire 6 TL Bolters
With a BS of a 4, 8/9 will hit (48/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (16/6 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, 2/3 will save (8/9 die)

The Marines fire 2 Plasma Guns
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (4/3 hits)
With a STR of 7, 5/6 will wound (20/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 20/18 MEQ die.

The Marines fire 1 Multi-Melta
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (2/3 hits)
With a STR of 8, 5/6 will wound (10/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 10/18 MEQ die.

The eldar kill a total of 45/36 MEQ on average.
The marines kill a total of 92/36 MEQ on average.
At long distance the marines pack much bigger punch vs. MEQ, about 2ce as much.



Light Targets at Short Range
Firing from 10", both units open fire on a squad of Ork Shootas
The Eldar fire with 3 shuriken cannons. (9 dice)
With a BS of a 3, 1/2 will hit (9/2 hits)
With a STR of 6, 5/6 will wound (45/12 wounds)
There is no save, so 135/36 orks head to vist Gork

The Eldar Guardians fire with 6 TL Shuriken Cats (12 dice)
With a BS of a 3, 3/4 will hit (9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (9/2 wounds)
There is no save, so 162/36 orks give Mork thier regards

The Eldar Warlock fire with 1 TL Shuriken Cat
With a BS of a 4, 1/2 will hit (8/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (8/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 16/36 orks bite it.

The Marines fire 6 TL Bolters at rapid fire
With a BS of a 4, 8/9 will hit (96/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (48/9 wounds)
There is no save, so 48/6 orks are eating dust.

The Marines fire 2 Plasma Guns at rapid fire.
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (8/3 hits)
With a STR of 7, 5/6 will wound (40/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 40/18 orks die.

The Marines fire 1 Multi-Melta
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (2/3 hits)
With a STR of 8, 5/6 will wound (10/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 10/18 orks die. (0-1 orks)

The eldar kill a total of 313/36 orks on average.
The marines kill a total of 388/36 orks on average.
Marines still edge out over eldar on soft targets.



Hard Targets at Short Range
Firing from 10", both units open fire on a squad of MEQ

The Eldar fire with 3 shuriken cannons.
With a BS of a 3, 1/2 will hit (9/2 hits)
With a STR of 6, 5/6 will wound (45/12 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, 2/3 will save (15/12 die)

The Eldar Guardians fire with 6 TL Shuriken Cats (12 dice)
With a BS of a 3, 3/4 will hit (9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (9/2 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, MEQ get 2/3 save (3/2 die)

The Eldar Warlock fire with 1 TL Shuriken Cat
With a BS of a 4, 1/2 will hit (8/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (8/18 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, MEQ get 2/3 save (2/27 die)

The Marines fire 6 TL Bolters at rapid fire
With a BS of a 4, 8/9 will hit (96/9 hits)
With a STR of 4, 1/2 will wound (32/6 wounds)
Wearing Power Armor, 2/3 will save (16/9 die)

The Marines fire 2 Plasma Guns at rapid fire
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (8/3 hits)
With a STR of 7, 5/6 will wound (40/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 40/18 MEQ die.

The Marines fire 1 Multi-Melta
With a BS of a 4, 2/3 will hit (2/3 hits)
With a STR of 8, 5/6 will wound (10/18 wounds)
There is no save, so 10/18 MEQ die.

The eldar kill a total of 215/108 MEQ on average.
The marines kill a total of 492/108 MEQ on average.
At short distance the marines pack much bigger punch vs. MEQ

I love SM toughness on the Bikers, and I'd pay 3 more points for it any day. The Eldar are a little more maneuverable, but they can't get HW on their bikes like Marines can. And trust me, the BS 4 on not only TL bolters but also HB's and Multimeltas and plasma and meltaguns... etc. Awesome. Although, I must give Eldar their props for coolness and their Seer Council, but I'm a SM kinda guy and I like SM bikers more .

-A.

Seer council & supporting units (GJS/SS) and mounted cool hq's

vs

Characters like a SM captian, Khan and a mounted MotF with conversion beamer. Scout bikes again give more diversity.

Basically you can field -for pure bike armies- some insanely hard & expensive sqauds for eldar with everything else being in support of that strategy. There isnt much variability at all.

Where-as a pure bike SM army can come in quite a few flavours, using scout bikes, HWB squads, standard Marine bike squads as either gun platforms or assault sqaud and ofcourse the mounted command squads. All of this can be improved or modifyed with the addition of various types of mounted HQ's.

Space Marines have the edge given that they are tougher and have better weapontry. The days of pure Sam Hain are dead for right now until a new codex. Both need supporting units, but Eldar more so in order to be a viable unit in an army. Especially at there point values. Eldar guardian mounted unit should be a little cheaper for what you get, and the warlock (enough said) because he can almost equal the cost of three man unit of jetbikes without being that much of an upgrade for the points. A veteran is better for the points especially since he is included for a hidden 15 points.

I added a Warlock to the Eldar squads due to the singing spear that they add.
That gives the squad quite a bit of anti-tank firepower for a +26 points over another GJB.

You can have anti-tank with shuriken-cannoning GJS's by using;

1) Superiour speed

2) Superior range (compared to a singing spear)

3) superior ROF (compared to the single ranged str 8 multi-melta)

4)Side armor (see (1) )

No need for singing spears in that sense. Spears maybe in warlock seer squads, as hitting vehicles with a 3+/2+ ballistic skill check is easier than hitting a fast-moving vehicle in H2H with 6's. Any day.

Warlock squads want blades, not spears.

That entirely depends on if thier they only reliably choice to tank on AV13/14 vehicles OR fleshy bodies.

Well, I run Warlocks in my GJS with Spears just in case I need anti-tank on the go. This seems like a toughness vs. mobility argument, really. SMs are tougher, but have less speed, thus less mobility. That 6" in the Assault phase does make a difference. Also, we cannot forget the Farseer with his various Psyker stuff going on.

Also, it may be a style factor, too. Though I profess to know little about pure bike SM armies.

Why would a Seer Council need Singing Spears to be able to deal with vehicles? Usually, a Seer Council consists of a Farseer and 7-10 Warlocks (or something). That means 24-33 Strength 9 attacks when they charge a vehicle. Why exactly do they need the Singing Spears again?

labmouse42 wrote:Math

But no one takes Eldar bikes for their shooting, and SS are a bad idea.

Airmaniac wrote:Why would a Seer Council need Singing Spears to be able to deal with vehicles? Usually, a Seer Council consists of a Farseer and 7-10 Warlocks (or something). That means 24-33 Strength 9 attacks when they charge a vehicle. Why exactly do they need the Singing Spears again?

They dont. I don't get it either. Paying more points and losing vital CC attacks.

Here is the trick with that. If I charge a Land Raider and blow it up, what do I do then? I am a sitting duck at that point and I will get assaulted by the Termies. That is a problem no matter how you slice it. However, if I throw a Spear and blow up the tank, I can scoot or assault if I wish to. The point is, you have more options. I don't kit all my Warlocks with them, just the Farseer and 1-2 Warlocks, so I have that option for a thrown attack.

You can also blow the raider up with a combo shot from one of your 3 fire prisms, or something else. You shouldnt rely on your council for everything.

Barring that encircle the doors with your ~9 bike models.

If they work for you more power to you, I just dont like the idea of spending points to lose crucial attacks. They really need to get the charge off as it is with 2 attacks base.

Encircling isn't reliable. They will get shot to pieces by nearby units. Fire Prisms are not that realiable, either. At 1500, I only have two anyhow and bad rolls happen. Running a few Spears spread out in the army gives you options, which is better than having no options. Losing ~2 attacks from your Council or 1 attack from a GSJ unit isn't that important that I would sacrifice the chance to stop a major threat.

Just my two cents. Clearly, everyone has their own style anyhow.

@labmouse:
few things: firstoff, the attack bikes get to shoot their TL bolters in addition to their gunner's weapon, so in all the above examples, the marines have a slightly better edge. Additionally, I do not feel that double plasma guns is the ideal loadout. Due to the speed and survivability of bikes, Flamers are actually quite good. Even against MEq's, you merely need to touch a handful to equal or exceed the effectiveness of a single doubltapping plasma gun (and even more effective against a target in cover). Additionally, many people equip their warlocks with destructor to capitalize on this.

The true test, however, generally comes from the following assault. While bikes can jump back, this doesn't always guarantee a successful evasion of a return assault, and a times, the initial shooting must be followed by an assault. In this case, the bikes will always outperform a generic GJB squad due to higher toughness and strength, as well as a squad leader with a powerfist, and frag grenades. Seeing as how the squads are nearly the same in points cost, I think we can safely conclude that from a troops-only perspective, the space marines are the clear winners.

However, troops do not necessarily make the army, and what the deciding factors will be is the support you bring.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Encircling isn't reliable. They will get shot to pieces by nearby units. Fire Prisms are not that realiable, either. At 1500, I only have two anyhow and bad rolls happen. Running a few Spears spread out in the army gives you options, which is better than having no options. Losing ~2 attacks from your Council or 1 attack from a GSJ unit isn't that important that I would sacrifice the chance to stop a major threat.

Just my two cents. Clearly, everyone has their own style anyhow.

QFT..

But I didnt realise you could do the awesome thing of ....'Shoot & scoot' Love it!

Yep. 6" instead of assaulting, which makes Eldar great. Jumping behind cover after unloading is just great.

I agree with giving a spear to the Farseer for her BS 5 alone.

I think that Space Marines would be the better all-bike army for their increased toughness and versatility. Jetbikes are much more manueverable, but I find that maneuverability isn't as much of an advantage when applied army-wide as it does when it's used on a few supporting units. You sacrifice toughness for speed, which comes into its own when your guys start getting shot. In my experience in 40k, it's rare to be able to outmaneuver everyone in the enemy army. Your guys will be attacked and Space Marines are better equipped to deal with that.

Besides, the 24" range of SM bikes over Jetbikes and ability to take meltaguns and Attack Bikes gives them a big edge.

Agreed, Chimaera.

Chimaera2000 wrote:
I think that Space Marines would be the better all-bike army for their increased toughness and versatility. Jetbikes are much more manueverable, but I find that maneuverability isn't as much of an advantage when applied army-wide as it does when it's used on a few supporting units. You sacrifice toughness for speed, which comes into its own when your guys start getting shot. In my experience in 40k, it's rare to be able to outmaneuver everyone in the enemy army. Your guys will be attacked and Space Marines are better equipped to deal with that.

Besides, the 24" range of SM bikes over Jetbikes and ability to take meltaguns and Attack Bikes gives them a big edge.

QFT, especially asbout the inevitability of close range encounters. Even more true of squads largely armed with 12" range weapons, even with JSJ.

Eldar bikes are fun but fragile. If you're looking for a competitive force, go with Marines. If you already have an Eldar habi... er, army and want a fun variant, build Eldar bikes. Also, the Seer Council thing can get old quickly, for both you and your opponents.

Finally- Eldar bikes are ancient models. They are likely to get a replacement within the next couple years, if the rumors about Eldar being up for a buff next year (or DE with a multi-use kit) are true. The prototype is old hat now, but it looks great and is probably being held back for a surefire profit booster for GW's next release period. The current bikes need a rider replacement using Guardians, which can be abit fiddly and annoying. If you're into modeling it's a great opportunity, but I'm just saying that going with Marines lets you enhance a decent kit rather than working up an oldy just to make it look passable.

If you feel COMPELLED to field all bikes and nothing else - it seems Marines would be your best choice for all-around competitiveness with anti-tank available and some good anti-infantry options.

Also, lots of cool upgrades and special characters to model up.


- Blackbone

I must add that I feel that Eldar bikers cannot live.
Mine have never killed anything. Ever.
They have always died too soon to do anything.
They suck unless you have a lot of them.

Shining Spears do better, especially against Necrons.

I have used both marine bikers, eldar bikers, shining spears, seer council, and assault style marine bikers.

I have to give support to the marines, and with the new white scar guy, or the dark angels it goes hands down to the marines. But damn did I love using the seer councils against tyranids "Ok thats 22 dead genestealers, next. . . "

Consider this: Ork Speed Freaks with Wazzdakka and 60 Warbikes (6 groups of 10 Bikes), all with Power Klaw Nob and Bosspole. Brings you close to 2k points.

I think though, that if we are allowed to class a Fire prism as a larger Attack bike (which is only fair as the closest thing otherwise is a vyper.. sorry, I didnt say anything. Doesnt exist) then eldar jetbike armies can do very well as while marine bikes are all nice and fast, thier related vehicle are slow and cant fire many weapons on the move.

A focoused blast on a fire prism will get atleast two bikers, more if they have to group up for whatever reason, it will ignore their T4(5) and will instant-death that attack bike. It can also out manouver the squad when used with supporting jetbikes (as thier own tanks/fast vehicles are weaker & have less firepower or slow and shoot less).

So, essentailly, its unfair and unrealistic to compare pure bike armies with eldar & SM as eldar arent designed to work best with syngery where-as a dual flaming 8man sqaud with a p.fist sgt & a multi-melta attack biker are pretty much good-at-everything stand alone units.

As many have said, T5 counts for a LOT. As a bug player I have a much better time dealing with eldar bikes because of low T values. Even with my little warriors armed with 2 devourers (making it a single assault 4 weapon that rerolls everything) eldar go down very quickly, even if you need 6's to hit. I get a break with rerolling wounds on that one. Against marines I need 5's to wound, on top of possibly needing 6's to hit. There's a big difference for me between getting past the first round of needing 6's and needing 4's vs. 5's to wound.

Space marines have all the advantages and virtually no disadvantages. I believe this does hold true for the bikes because of the toughness factor vs. small arms fire, all other things discounted.

It seems everyone is forgetting the Shining spear... While they are stupidly expensive they are brutal on the charge.

8 I5 S6 Power weapon attacks plus 3 I6 S8 Power weapon attacks will easily kill anything in the game.

Their BS is higher than the GJB too so they get a leg up in the shooting.

Whenever I take a lot of bikes, I make sure to take some Shining Spears to 'clean up' any assaults that might happen.

However, they are really easy to kill for the points. 35+ point marines do not make for a winning game when they get shot at.

I think you simultaneously made your point and shot yourself... You're absolutely right in that they're devastating on the charge, whether against infantry or vehicles. But they are horribly expensive and die in droves when they take fire. I see them as being very, very, VERY good in the first round and then significantly less good in subsequent rounds. T3 with a less than average save doesn't last long. Period. I tell you though, if they were cheaper (in both ways) I'd run them often and in big numbers. You're just so right about their advantages and they really are very brutal.