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I'm putting together another company of Space Marines and am looking at the various builds.
In the book, they give the rhinos as a transport, then they have the Razorback.

Does anyone even use rhinos anymore? and if so, why?

What are the benefits of splitting the squads into 5 man teams and dropping them into razorbacks?

What are the benefits of Combat Squads all around?

Would you drop more points into tactical squads, or drop a few more into assult squads, instead?

I usually play around a manuver element and base of fire, with a strong reaction and manuverability game, but I'm trying something new, and before I start dropping $$$ into the tanks, I thought I'd put it to others as to what sort to get.
Im thinking a couple of predators and a whirlwind, but now Im looking to the transport question.

Rhino's seem a bit meh compaired to some of the other options out there, but I thought I'd ask.

If you haven't bought anything yet I would recommend buying the razorbacks. They have enough bits that if you don't glue everything you can swap back and forth between either a razorback or a rhino.

Rhino's are awesome for 35pts. Mobile terrain and movement interdiction all for one low low price.

Also think about the fact that if you choose not to combat squad (maybe because it's an annihilation mission) then you can't hide all of your guys in the razorback.

And if you really are looking for a delivery vehicle for a squad more assault oriented why pay the extra points for the razorback.


It really does depend on what the rest of your army looks like.

I agree. Rhinos are moving terrain IMO. They offer ok armor and are cheap to boot. I think as long as they get you at least CLOSE to your destination then they are worth the points. After that use them to either tank shock and get blown up... or on the way to a tank shock, they get blown up. Either wya for at least a turn they keep one of your units from getting fired on. AND ITS 35PTS!

The problem with an RZB is it cannot transport a full squad of ten Marines.

G

I like em, really good at blocking ork hordes so you can deal with em peicemeal, decent at pulling off a fish of fury attack with two rhinoed Marine squads. (Put the rhinos in a V formation with a 2.5 inch gap between them, the eneymy can't assault you until they blow up the rhinos. And since you weren't embarked when they are shot they cant charge you as well. Generally good for two rapid fire turns or one rapid fire and then next turn counterassault the unit a killin your rhinos.) Also good for a surprise deployment if you have all of your squads in Rhinos. Make up some markers and then assign one squad to a rhino so the only thin on the field is rhinos. Great for confuddleing the enemy!

Green Blow Fly wrote:The problem with an RZB is it cannot transport a full squad of ten Marines.

G

You know, I used to think tha myself and asked "what is the use of a razorback" after I scored three of them for almost nothing in a trade recently. But after actually using them in a couple of games now, I'm a believer. It simply doesn't have to transport ten marine to be effective.

The transport aspect of the razorback is an unlooked for bonus. What it is, is a inexpensive weapons platform that adds firepower to the squad, can provide cover if needed as does the rhino, and soaks up and dlutes the fire directed at the unit. (in that respect they are kind of like how I use drednaughts...if you are shooting at them, then you are not shooting at what will actually hurt you in my army!) I like to think of the razorback as being akin to the BMDs that Soviet airborne units were equipted with. Yeah they were transports of a sort, but they were used mostly as a dedicated support vehicle attached to a squad that greatly enhanced it's firepower and provided it's primary anti-tank capacity.

TR

Trust me. Get Razorbacks. That way, you can switch them out for rhinos at your convenience. The point of taking Rhinos is that combat squads die a lot easier than ten-man squads.

-A.

Rhinos, and Razorbacks really, give you some added mobility that, at least now, is very difficult to equal. Drop Pods being actual 'transport' options helps, but it's a one-shot transport rather than anything else.

Personally I prefer Rhinos just because I often field full ten-man squads, and if I don't go with combat squads, I want to maintain some level of mobility.

Combat Squadding some units can be rather nice, especially with units like Tactical Squads, leaving the Heavy weapon and some power-armor meat shields as then shoot away, while the transport and Sgt/Special weapon go zooming off to get some more appreciable kills.

Assault Squads give you relatively unprecedented mobility in a C:SM Army, and depending on how you kit out the squad, can have equivalent utility against a variety of units, but lack the armored shell of a Rhino, and the possibility of using that Rhino or Razorback for other purposes after the primary purpose has been fulfilled.

Razorbacks are more popular because for a measly five points, you get a transport and a twin-linked heavy bolter, no small bit of firepower for the price. Do that a few times, maybe throw in some other weapon options for the hell of it, and suddenly you've got a LOT more firepower being thrown at whatever you're up against, a lot more targets for the enemy to dedicate fire towards, without a major knock to your overall points cost.

What does 5 standard Razorbacks cost? 200 points. That's 200 points for a line of LoS killing, anti-infantry blasting goodness.

Note, that in KP fights, this blessing turns into a curse, giving your opponent a SLEW of relatively easy-to-kill units on the table, but such is the nature of the choice.

i still like rhino's, dont get me wrong, they have some uses, but they are not the best options IMO.
make good mobile shields for a turn, or 2 if your lucky.

razorbacks are great, i love them, buy a full tac squad, break it into combat squads and throw the bolter boyz into it, cheap, effective, and it boosts your fire power a little bit.

pods arent too bad either, but only really any use for dropping melta fire into range or dropping a kitted out combat unit into assault range.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The problem with an RZB is it cannot transport a full squad of ten Marines.

G

And i'll add that razorbacks don't have firepoints any more.

if you want to put a meltagun and a combi-melta on something from the safety of a transport, there is only one option.

if the rhino doesn't move and has something to shoot at within 24" then it trades a twin linked heavy bolter for a storm bolter, a special weapon/bolter and a heavy weapon.


Not to say that I don't also love razorbacks. 5 points for the TLHB means that you don't have to have a unit inside for it to be doing something.

These transport options were very well designed. Because they create a very difficult choice during army construction.

Razorbacks are really, really good if you don't mind either having your 10 man tac squads on foot or giving up a bunch of KPs. The extra fire power for 5 points is amazing. They are also one of the cheapest ways to get lascannons. But I prefer using the rhino 90% of the time. The fact that my 10 man squads can hide from things like nids or orks so they have to work to assault my guys.

There are plenty of downsides to it, but I always use Combat Squads and Razorbacks. I'm a fan of Sicarious, so I use my troops to DO something every game, not only do I hate to hide, I hate to take anything that isn't working for me.

Personally, I use the Razorback with Lascannon/Twin-Linked Plasmagun, with a Storm Bolter and Dozer Blade.

It's 90 points extra on a squad for an attached light tank/transport that does well at destroying armor and TEQ's. I use them in groups of 2-4 for saturation. Previously in 4th, this variant turret wasn't even available, and the T-L Lascannon (much more limited IMO) version rang up to 100 points.

It really depends on your play style.

Personally, I love mobile tactical squads, so I run with 3 tact squads in rhinos.

With Sicarius you can give Scout to one of the rhinos and have some 1st turn fun

While buying a rhino out of the box can be expensive and maybe not as useful as other things you can buy (personally I'd buy the Razorback kit because you get both parts and heavy weapons). In my experience Rhinos are still a very viable option. It's very useful to travel 12 inches inside armor and you can have another squad take cover behind them which is quite useful. Of course they die really quickly to heavy weapons fire but they're so cheap at 35 points it's really a waste of shooting for that squad and you'll protect the marines by bunching them up behind the transport so your enemies may not be able to see them. As for Razorbacks I'm not totally sure but just as Trench Raider said the fact that they're a heavy weapons platform with armor capabilities that doesn't take up a troop slot is very useful. Also, to get past the 6 unit limit you could split a typical marine squad with 4 bolters and a heavy weapon and have 4 marines and a special weapon like a meltagun on the other team, and fit in a HQ choice too. Just my lengthy opinion

Having been on the receiving end of plent of twin-linked assault cannon fire from razorbacks lately, I say go for it.

warpcrafter wrote:Having been on the receiving end of plent of twin-linked assault cannon fire from razorbacks lately, I say go for it.

There's very few [eta: non-template] weapons, let alone transports, that are as effective as TLDCs on a Razorback at that distance or greater. And the new assault game means you'll nearly always have a target within 24".

My thinking is, if you're gonna fire them you might as well upgrade to the Assault cannon. If you're not gonna fire them you might as well get the Rhino since it has better transport, cheaper, and has fire points.

But I agree with the others that if you're not sure may as well get the Rback box for the bits. That said does the current R-back box have an Assault Cannon? I upgraded mine by buying the AC bitz and sticking them on a Rhino.

While the razorback is a good choice when building a marine gun-line, I think the rhino is still excellent when you want to build a more mobile marine force.

Granted, I play chaos, but I still think that the rhino is one of the best ways to spend 35 points in the game.

I like no frills Razorback, with heavy bolters. greatly boosts anti horde firepower. I use them as mobile blocking turrets and as the need arises assault transport for a combat squad.

They can survive a decent while if you take Vindies to draw the attention, they also screen the flanks of the Vindies, good synergy.

the TLHB standard razorbacks are wshat I field. The heavy bolters can help take out just about any infantry. I was very lucky one time to take out 4 terminators in one turn with two razorbacks.

The key to razorbacks is to make sure that you have some sort of long range option in the tac squad they are selected with. Now I have a plasma cannon & Heavy bolter vs just a storm bolter firing every turn. I also tend to kep the sgt with the exposed combat squad as they are more likely to get fired upon and have to take a moral check.

There is a 3rd option.


Rhino with 2 Stormbolters.

Costs 45pts but gives you 10man capacity + 4 S4 shots on the move (only slightly worse than a TL HB).

While we can all disagree about the type of vehicle to select, I think there's no debate that having vehicles for your SM's is better than footsloggers. Right?

agreed. The fact is you need to be able to move onto objectives, and the wall the rhinos/razorbacks offer is invaluable.

How many rhinos/backs do you guys run? I run a rhino for everything except my Devs and Assault squads. Seeing as one shouldn't move and the other one is faster anyways. (I don't use termies personally as I plya Greenwing.)

I use a Rhino for each Tactical Squad, and if I used Dev's I'd give them Rhino's also.

Like someone else said, I just put two storm bolters on my Rhino's, and then have two Marine's shoot out of the two Fire Points as it moves if they get the chance.

Why would I ever get out of it? I can claim objectives from inside it. If I get assaulted the vehicle blows up (probably), and I can assault the person who destroyed the Rhino on my turn. With high leadership I am rarely going to be pinned. If I am getting shot at they have to waste turns shooting at the Rhino. Losing Marines to an exploding Rhino is far safer than standing in the open.

Yes, the new rules for results of wrecks and explosions on embarked passengers is much more forgiving now. It didn't make sense in the last edition to take a transport when it would end up automatically pinning you in the wreck half the time. It's still somewhat dangerous, but since the worst that can happen is a Str 4 AP - hit per model and a pinning test, Space Marines have very little to fear from loosing a transport. Oh, and smoke launchers giving a 4+ cover save rocks. Previously, downgrading to glances just meant a 1/6 chance of being destroyed, not a 1/2 chance. Space Marine transports got tougher, sneakier, and cheaper. What's not to love? Now I just want Overcharged Engines on Vanilla transports.....

Rhinos still rule. Landraiders are nice but we are talking 1 landraider versus 7 rhinos. If you like putting all your eggs in one basket go with the landraiders... Drop pods are cool but you have one chance to position them where they will help you.

QUESTION: What is more protected? A 10-man squad in a landraider or a 10-man squad in a rhino behind line of squads in rhinos?

On the razorback question: 1 razorback is poop. Put 5 of them out there and see what your opponent thinks. Best one is the TL-plas, lascannon but if you can eek out another squad nothing wrong with the cheap TL HB razorback. With the new squad rules, razorbacks are a bit nerfed in that you have to take a 10-man to get a special and heavy choice but otherwise this is still and effective option. Look at it this way: 5-man for 90 pts 75 for a razorback... 165. 10-man with flamer and ML for 170. You can present an entirely mech army.

I run a salamander army and I would not trade my rhinos... 12" move smoke on turn 1 pretty much means I deliver my flamers and multi-meltas where they are needed.
They also form a protective wall for vindicators, dreadnoughts and high priced squads in other rhinos (sternguard & vulkan) that follow behind them.

In 4 rounds of tournament... 3 games rhinos delivered me successfully to the objectives or units and most survived to the end not to mention they kept the vindicators covered for that 1st turn of movement so that there 24" range was in effect for the rest of the battles. Only in one did my rhinos get wasted on the 1st turn. (I have high respect for what necron destoyers do to vehicles.) Still in that battle, their hulks kept my squads and follow-up dreadnoughts intact for the 6 turns of the game so that I could still managed a draw being mid-way between the 4 objectives and enemy after my rides were shot out from under me.

one thing rhino's have is that a lot of players ignore them unless you put something big inside it. A rhino with 10 TAC marines in it will probably make it to enemy lines while he guns for bigger stuff. Load the squad with a multi melta and/or meltagun and youve got a tank hunting force that will probably get to the front. One tactic I am fond of is combat squadding a meltagun/missile squad, put the CS with missile in a firing spot and the melta CS in the rhino, now you have a weak looking transport taking bolters and a meltagun to the front. A razorback is also good for this, but a razorback looks way more appetizing to enemy anti-tank. he sees a transport with TL assault cannon or TL lascannon with 11 11 10 armor and hes pretty likely to try to drop it early.

Just the other night i played against a SM army running a LRC, 2 Ironclad's, and 2 TL las razorbacks. i was running 6 vehicles, LRC rhino 2 preds, 2 ven dreads, between autocannons on both preds and sponson lascannons on one of them, i dropped both razors first turn and made his marines slog it over, so they ran into assault termies fleeting with shrike. plus I managed to tie because my last scoring unit got to an obj last turn and i created a wall between them and the enemy with my rhino and a predator

I'm not saying razorbacks are bad, but if you want cheap LoS blocking tank that the enemy will probably ignore for awhile, rhino's are great

How badly can killpoints effect the outcome though in a game that utilizes rhinos for all squads (3-4). I'm planning a CSM WE army and im not familiar with the KP rules as much.

They are relevant in a mech army.

However, I played three RTTs in a row and won them with footslogging Space Marines (incl. Termies and Attack Bikes, but no tanks). Tanks can be a liability in kill point missions.

I found that transports are good in objective based missions. For instance, if you know that some outflankers will appears soon, eventually close to the objectives in your home zone. Then stick the unit holding the objective into a Rhino. The outflankers may take down the Rhino but they cannot simultaneously deal with the squad inside. Next turn, the squad inside can take on the outflankers.