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Just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on creating sucsessor marine chapters. Now I know Codex Marines are pretty much "anything goes" when making sucsessors, but what about non-codex marines? Is it pretty much make up whatever you want and use a different set of rules? (such as BA, SW, BT or DA rules?) Or should the sucessor chapters of the non-codex marines have lots in common with the parent chapter such as a similar color scheme and similar name? (example: Blood Angels have a Red/Red color, and Blood Drinkers have Red/Yellow scheme)

What are your thoughts?

It depends.

Ideally, if you're going with one of the separate army lists (BA, BT, SW, DA) then they ought to be similar enough to the original chapter in appearance. Usually a good range of paint options are listed in the army book in question.

That's not to say you can't improvise and make your own. But keep the scheme. DA? Largely Dark Green based color scheme. BT? Black and white. BA? Reds. SW? Blue-Gray.

Most people aren't too picky on what you're doing, so long as you're not throwing out tons of 'proxies' to make up for lacking the models. Every shoulder pad doesn't need to have the iconography, but keep things consistent and reasonable.

Oh, and come up with a good name. That helps.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels have examples in their codices.
If you keep some ties to the original Legion, then i don't see a problem.
DA still have some close relations ( "unforgiven" ) so organization and style will be similar.
BA may be more loosely tied, maybe possible to have more difference.

Black Templars may not have successors, instead their numbers don't comply to codex astartes and the crusade-nature of them also supports an oversized force.
Maybe use a compatible but different paint-scheme and keep the style of them. Could be a "long time crusade" fielding colors to honor a specific deed.

Space Wolves had the wolf brothers IIRC, but now it seems they have no longer any successors.
Size of the grand-companys and independence of the wolflords may allow some difference, so possible to have your own color/markings.
I think the wolf-theme is given.

No. The Lamentors are Blood Angel sucsessor's, but follow the Codex.

I would say with a successor chapter that the colour scheme picked doesnt have to match the parent chapter too closely, you could do a 'sons of fenris' chapter in bone colours but use the wolf chapter symbols in reference to the space wolves, without all your successor chapters having to be a closely matching colour. Genisi chapter if i remember correctly are red, yet they decend from the ultrmarines who as we all know are blue.

For me, pick a chapter name, a parent chapter and a cool colour scheme that your happy with and can paint, and if you wanted to invent a story linking the successor chapter and its parent one together!

the codicies are a good place to start, either for codex or non codex chapters, i also recommend 'how to paint space marines' ive found it invaluble since its publication.

bob

To go from the GW Canon on how Chapters are made, pretty much everyone except the Space Wolves and Raven Guard get their geneseed used, due to those 2 being highly corrupted, whereas the Ultramarines and Dark Angels remain essentualy uncorrupted.

Imperial Fists and Salamanders are only minimally compromised. Blood Angels is used on occasion simply because the High Lords aren't fully aware of the extent of the damage caused when ol' Sangie got capped.
As for White Scars and Iron hands, I honestly do not know enough about them to say how messed up their Geneseed is.

And just as a side note, Black Templars don't ever have any successors because they are not a 1st founding legion, they are a one of two 2nd founding chapters who broke off from the Imperial Fists (The Imperial Fists embracing Papa Smurfs Codex fully, the Crimson Fists hybridising it with their traditional organisation, and Black Templars using it as Loo Roll)

So essentially, having an Ultramarines stock is the easiest to justify, since the High Lords "recently" tend towards it because they don't trust the other chapters as much as them (something with our pseudo-omnipotent view can see is kinda not working out, oh Lord of the Mini Imperium known as Macrage), while Raven Guard and Space Wolves are just better off playing as them, lest you somehow pen an epic back story that far surpasses anything GW could write (on second thought, a Monkey with a pile of poo could do that half the time, so perhaps I am exaggerating a bit.)

Space Wolf geneseed was declared unstable by Mars and was no longer allowed to be used in Successor chapters. Can't remember the source.

Gwar! wrote:To go from the GW Canon on how Chapters are made, pretty much everyone except the Space Wolves and Raven Guard get their geneseed used, due to those 2 being highly corrupted,

-Raven guard have 3 successors in actual C: Space marines.
-Salamanders still said to have no successors.
-Dark angels at least 6 successors in their codex.
-Blood angels also at least 5 known successors.
-Imperial Fists have 2 renown, Crimson fists and Black Templars, but must not be all of them.
-white scars have 4 suiccessors in C: space marines.
-iron hands ave 2 successors in C: space marines.
-ultramarines said as biggest legion and about 23 known successors at 2nd founding.

so youre only right on space wolves.

Gwar! wrote:
So essentially, having an Ultramarines stock is the easiest to justify, since the High Lords "recently" tend towards it because they don't trust the other chapters as much as them (something with our pseudo-omnipotent view can see is kinda not working out, oh Lord of the Mini Imperium known as Macrage), while Raven Guard and Space Wolves are just better off playing as them, lest you somehow pen an epic back story that far surpasses anything GW could write (on second thought, a Monkey with a pile of poo could do that half the time, so perhaps I am exaggerating a bit.)

In short = UM are ultra, therfore all wanna be UM's.

edit: double post through connection break. sorry.

Allow me to explain a bit:

1hadhq wrote:-Raven guard have 3 successors in actual C: Space marines.

There are the Second Founding Chapters from the break up of the Legion. If you read the history of their Raven Guard after the heresy, you see that Corax Attempted to rebuild his shattered legion with dodgy accelerated growth, and messed up the geneseed. He then locked himself in a tower for a year being all depressed then went off into space or something.

1hadhq wrote:-Salamanders still said to have no successors.

No, they are said to have no SECOND FOUNDING Successors. There's no reason to assume their Geneseed wasn't built up enough to be used for a 4th or 5th founding chapter.

1hadhq wrote:-Dark angels at least 6 successors in their codex.

Again, Most are 2nd founding. I didn't say it had never been used (it was used because it is incredibly pure, almost moreso than Space Marines) but "recently" (however you wana take that in a 40k sense) they have tended towards Ultras Geneseed more than anyone.

1hadhq wrote:-Blood angels also at least 5 known successors.

Again, I didn't say it wasn't used. Also, these "5 Successors" I would take a guess at are, lo and behold, the SECOND FOUNDING sucessors brought about by the split up of the legions.

1hadhq wrote:-Imperial Fists have 2 renown, Crimson fists and Black Templars, but must not be all of them.

At this point I can see you are mixing up the Second Founding with the creation of utterly new chapters.

1hadhq wrote:-white scars have 4 suiccessors in C: space marines.

Again, 4 SECOND FOUNDING chapters. Nothing saying they wouldn't have more.

1hadhq wrote:-iron hands ave 2 successors in C: space marines.

See White Scars Comment.

1hadhq wrote:-ultramarines said as biggest legion and about 23 known successors at 2nd founding.

Along with 90% of the Current Generation Space Marine Chapters.

1hadhq wrote:so you're only right on space wolves.

Space Wolves did have a "Chapter" made in the Second founding, though it is the veiw of many that this wasnt a real chapter (As evidenced by their relevantly quick disbandment -winkwink nudgenudge-) that Russ authorised only because he was too tired kicking heretics asses and didnt want that asshat Gulliman to start a Second Civil War.

Successor chapters of any known chapter can be codex or non codex and don't have to have anything in common including their colours.

The Mortifactors are almost the opposite of the Ultramarines yet they are an UM successor chapter.

Black Templars have a completely different colour scheme than the Imperial Fists.

Marine chapters are often influenced by the cultures of the planets they recruit from so if a successor chapter, even if started by volunteers from the parent chapter, could be quite different if they decide to use some of the local culture in their chapter rites.

cadbren wrote:Successor chapters of any known chapter can be codex or non codex and don't have to have anything in common including their colours.

The Mortifactors are almost the opposite of the Ultramarines yet they are an UM successor chapter.

I agree, the mortifactors are a good example for someone wanting to do a successor chapter but not nessessarily following the parent chapter too closely, you cant get any different than the ultrmarines and the mortifactors ( read the 2nd ultra marines novel by graham McNeil it gives you an idea of the gulf between them ) even though they come from the same gene stock?

What i intend doing with my marines is to paint them as a crusade force, using ultrmarines and their successor chapters to repesent a marine force from many different sources fighting for 1 cause under 1 banner?

bob

Actually a remnant chapter is a very cool idea, though they may be viewed as renegades if they did not return to their parent chapters. But perhaps that was not possible- perhaps they were separated in the Warp and so came together to survive and fight the best they could until they could regain contact. United in common cause, they fight until they can rejoin the Imperium, crusade complete, or die trying.

I'm just going to throw two things out there. 1 The founding chapter doesnt need to have anything in common with the successor, look at the mortifactors like is said, and also the red wolves or blood wolves (its one of those, its in the codex) are an ultramarine chapter. Another example is the lamenters like crazycarnifex said, a blood angel chapter, not only do they look more like imperial fists with there all yellow paint job, but they are pure codex marines. If you wanted, you dont even need an original chapter, all you need to do is say that they dont know, look at the blood ravens, there are like six possibilities, and half of them are chaos. 2 You keep saying that there are 2 chapters from the second founding of imperial fists, but the soul drinkers were one too, its fluff but it was nagging me every time i read it.

iamthecougar wrote: You keep saying that there are 2 chapters from the second founding of imperial fists, but the soul drinkers were one too, its fluff but it was nagging me every time i read it.

By Cannon he is correct. Don't forget the Second Founding was entirely different from the 1st or 3rd through 26th founding. To even call it a founding is a bit of a Misnomer but to get back on track. The Sucessors are listed as The Imperial Fists (obviously) the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars.

After the Heresy, the Imperial Fists were weakened, Dorn was a Broken man, and lead his bothers on a huge self destructive orgy of hate and bloodshed against the Iron Warriors. This is what caused them to dwindle to such low numbers.

Dorn, orginally one of Gullimans most vocal opponents to the Codex, agreed to bow down to him, and Orginised his Men into their respective Chapters, the Imperial Fists Chapter, Thos who loyaly followed Dorn to the letter. The Crimson Fists, those of the Legion who felt they should be able to compromise, adopting non codex formation of their first company, and the Black Templars, the most Zealous of the Imperial Fists Legion, who embarked on a Crusade that continues to this day.

Gwar! wrote:Allow me to explain a bit:

1hadhq wrote:-Raven guard have 3 successors in actual C: Space marines.

There are the Second Founding Chapters from the break up of the Legion. If you read the history of their Raven Guard after the heresy, you see that Corax Attempted to rebuild his shattered legion with dodgy accelerated growth, and messed up the geneseed. He then locked himself in a tower for a year being all depressed then went off into space or something.

1hadhq wrote:-Salamanders still said to have no successors.

No, they are said to have no SECOND FOUNDING Successors. There's no reason to assume their Geneseed wasn't built up enough to be used for a 4th or 5th founding chapter.

1hadhq wrote:-Dark angels at least 6 successors in their codex.

Again, Most are 2nd founding. I didn't say it had never been used (it was used because it is incredibly pure, almost moreso than Space Marines) but "recently" (however you wana take that in a 40k sense) they have tended towards Ultras Geneseed more than anyone.

1hadhq wrote:-Blood angels also at least 5 known successors.

Again, I didn't say it wasn't used. Also, these "5 Successors" I would take a guess at are, lo and behold, the SECOND FOUNDING sucessors brought about by the split up of the legions.

1hadhq wrote:-Imperial Fists have 2 renown, Crimson fists and Black Templars, but must not be all of them.

At this point I can see you are mixing up the Second Founding with the creation of utterly new chapters.

1hadhq wrote:-white scars have 4 suiccessors in C: space marines.

Again, 4 SECOND FOUNDING chapters. Nothing saying they wouldn't have more.

1hadhq wrote:-iron hands ave 2 successors in C: space marines.

See White Scars Comment.

1hadhq wrote:-ultramarines said as biggest legion and about 23 known successors at 2nd founding.

Along with 90% of the Current Generation Space Marine Chapters.

1hadhq wrote:so you're only right on space wolves.

Space Wolves did have a "Chapter" made in the Second founding, though it is the veiw of many that this wasnt a real chapter (As evidenced by their relevantly quick disbandment -winkwink nudgenudge-) that Russ authorised only because he was too tired kicking heretics asses and didnt want that asshat Gulliman to start a Second Civil War.

This lengthy so called explanation does add what?

Its obviously on the same page as the Legions+successors chart, so that this is related to 1st and 2nd founding isn't a surprise.
Easy to find for everyone because its right written on this page also.

Still accepted "canon" that GW will or can never name all successors, to do so would hinder anyone to build his own DIY chapter.
So, where is your point?

Mine is:

RG+Gwar! = doesn't work.
Why insist on "no successors" when there are at minimum 3, but possible more?
Why insist on "too corrupted to be chosen for new foundings" when Canon is that Corax messed up the Legions portion of it, not those
of the genebanks on Terra/mars/wherever.

You should work on it.

No need to be rude.

Your post was iterating the Second Founding ones. All I said was that there are many more, from subsequent foundings, and that the Space Wolf and Raven Guard geneseed are not commonly used because they are highly unstable.

I never said that any legion had no successors (since successors actually means those from the second founding, 3rd and above would be "Chapters based on x Geneseed" not Successors) other than the Salamanders.

So perhaps you should learn to read others posts before commenting on them.

Gwar! wrote:No need to be rude.

Where ? Again reading into?

Gwar! wrote:
Your post was iterating the Second Founding ones. All I said was that there are many more, from subsequent foundings, and that the Space Wolf and Raven Guard geneseed are not commonly used because they are highly unstable.

And you felt the need to point out its second founding chapters?

But you said:

Gwar! wrote:
To go from the GW Canon on how Chapters are made, pretty much everyone except the Space Wolves and Raven Guard get their geneseed used, due to those 2 being highly corrupted, whereas the Ultramarines and Dark Angels remain essentualy uncorrupted.

So "except" doesn't exclude something?

Gwar! wrote:
I never said that any legion had no successors (since successors actually means those from the second founding, 3rd and above would be "Chapters based on x Geneseed" not Successors) other than the Salamanders.

Now, how should i understand this?
1) RG = geneseed not used
2) RG = had successors
The all new "don't need geneseed" space marines?

Gwar! wrote:So perhaps you should learn to read others posts before commenting on them.

On the contrary.
I'll take my time to read. You may not follow any suggestions i made, won't stop me from pointing out when youre wrong.

My comment about Space Wolves and Raven Guard wasn't meant to convey that they are NEVER used, but only rarely, because other Geneseeds are much more stable and have better results.

Also, the High Lords do not have a Sample of the raven Guard genome before Corax cocked it up because the tithing was only begun after the Second Founding, which occurred some time after the heresy. In that Time the Imperial Fists went batty and Corax messed up their genome.

Now, how should i understand this?
1) RG = geneseed not used
2) RG = had successors
The all new "don't need geneseed" space marines?

Emperors bowels...

1) Raven Guard geneseed is not use much because it it corrupted so much.
2) They had successors, because Successors were not new marine Chapters, they were created from the splitting of the Legions, and would have had the same geneseed as the Parent Legion.

I'll take my time to read. You may not follow any suggestions i made, won't stop me from pointing out when youre wrong.

And likewise, since you are wrong on may points in both of your posts.

In my personal opinion the color scheme does not matter at all and frankly neither does the name, however you should follow the parent chapter as far as such signature traits such as the Blood Angels Black Rage, The Black Templars Vows, the Wolves using Blood Claws and Grey Hunters etc... Everything outside of that is really a personal decision.

My own Chapter is an Ultramarine Successor thet is Red and Grey and I call them the Crimson Lions and have done so since Rogue Trader days. If I was telling someone about my army, based on the name they would usually think it was a Dark Angels successor because of the "Lion" reference or when they saw my army, every player instantly thinking that every red marine they saw had to be a Blood Angel. I just got used to telling everyone that was playing me for the first time that my marines were just a plain old codex chapter and I just liked the name and the color scheme.

Gwar! wrote:
Also, the High Lords do not have a Sample of the raven Guard genome before Corax cocked it up because the tithing was only begun after the Second Founding, which occurred some time after the heresy. In that Time the Imperial Fists went batty and Corax messed up their genome.

1) The legions were founded before the primarchs returned and took over command of them.
-geneseed was available really early in the history of space marines in the solar system.

2) The main genebanks do exist, since a long time ( not post-heresy ), and may have a collection of 18/20 legions.
-the heresy had some destructive effects, but i can't find any scientist not keeping some portions of his research for is own.
-to say "no geneseed owned by the Ad. biologis" is just another wrong assumption without any source to back it up.
-so: geneseed was created and distributed, but not completely handed over since there would be no way to have geneseed
from the "traitor legions" and some foundings point on a (maybe illegal) use of such geneseeds. Also the Ad biologis is as independent as every other organization and secrecy is a part of research.
The tithing is installed to control the geneseed, maybe partial used to create new chapters but i doubt you get enough tithes to do so.

3) There is non-corrupted geneseed sent to the RG, otherwise it would not be possible to recrut new marines since the legions portion
was to messed up for that. ( IA 4).

4) The successors are in codex SM at least since 1998, so not news to anyone interested.

Gwar! wrote:Emperors bowels...

1) Raven Guard geneseed is not use much because it it corrupted so much.
2) They had successors, because Successors were not new marine Chapters, they were created from the splitting of the Legions, and would have had the same geneseed as the Parent Legion.

Excuses.
There is no mentioned intend of the "high lords", if or when the geneseed of corax was used to create new chapters.

Still, there isn't a difference of the geneseed other than a possible mutation in later foundings and the rumored "changed" geneseeds
of some foundings.

Anyone can field a chapter without any different geneseed to the parent legion.
The assumed difference between 2nd founding and later founding shall be what exactly?

Gwar! wrote: And likewise, since you are wrong on may points in both of your posts.

Oh didn't see the MAY points. Seems were a little slow in germany, still living in March.

Oh Lawdy! Your mocking me because of a single typo!

Right I've had enough, if you cannot be civil over a bloody pretend game, I'll have no further part in this.

My apologies to the OP. I only wished for a civil discussion, but has ended up as a maelstrom of pettiness and name calling.

Blood Wolf Angel Marines- the love child of red, grey, green, and blue.

I can't believe people are arguing about this. Especially when implanting a recruit with the sacred geneseed sounds so.... ewww.....

Chamleoneyes wrote:Just wanted to get some thoughts and opinions on creating sucsessor marine chapters. Now I know Codex Marines are pretty much "anything goes" when making sucsessors, but what about non-codex marines? Is it pretty much make up whatever you want and use a different set of rules? (such as BA, SW, BT or DA rules?) Or should the sucessor chapters of the non-codex marines have lots in common with the parent chapter such as a similar color scheme and similar name? (example: Blood Angels have a Red/Red color, and Blood Drinkers have Red/Yellow scheme)

What are your thoughts?

There is a massive amount of wiggle room available when making a successor chapter. Some successors will follow the organisation of their parent chapter, others disregard it. For example, the Blood Drinkers (my own army) was established as a Blood Angels successor chapter that actually strictly follows the Codex Astartes. The Red/Yellow scheme is actually the Second Company and they follow the same markings as the Smurfs.This has been the case since Codex Angels of Death. So there is one example where you would use the standard Codex Space Marine rules with a Blood Angels successor, same with the Lamenters, a successor that cured the Black Rage and so no Death Company etc. (although they do have a massive amount of bad luck).

If you can come up with a decent background explanation, there really is no limit on what you want to do with successors. Even though the fluff says Space Wolf geneseed isnt used, the 13th "Black" Founding, when an unknown number of Chapters were created, gives you the room to make a Space Wolf successor. They just dont know that they are.