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I'm currently planning a drop pod army (1500pts mainly). The plan is to go 2x tactical squads with pods, then 3x sternguard squads in pods. For HQ's I'd have 2 librarians, one with null zone to negate any invunerable saves when I fire the ap3 rounds, and both of them with gate of infinity to teleport to the otherside of the board after they clean up the first side. By that time the tactical marines should have come down and they can all link up to destroy the remainder of the enemy army.

The big question, however, is this: Are the combi-weapons worth it? I'm specifically looking at the combi plasmas here. With null zone+plasma, any enemy terminators would quickly be shredded, and enemy HQ's would die pretty fast too. As well, given the large amount of marine armies around, plasma would seem a nice way to combat then. On the other hand it's going to cost me 145pts to equip 29 sternguard with combi weapons (not all 30, as I needed 5pts for the epistolary upgrade at the end), and I'm wondering whether that could be used better elsewhere.

The planned list WITH the combi-weapons is as follows:

HQ

Librarian- 150pts
Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, Epistolary

Librarian- 100pts
The Avenger, Gate of Infinity

Troops

5 Tactical Marines- 125pts
Drop Pod

5 Tactical Marines- 125pts
Drop Pod

Elites

10 Sternguard Veterans- 335pts
2 Combi-meltas, 8 Combi-plasmas, Drop Pod

10 Sternguard Veterans- 335pts
2 Combi-meltas, 8 Combi-plasmas, Drop Pod

10 Sternguard Veterans- 330pts
2 Combi-meltas, 7 Combi-plasmas, Drop pod

1500pts

The plan is fairly obvious- group the 3 sternguard pods together, drop them down first turn, fire off the plasmas to obliterate all enemy marines, marine equivelants, 2+ save nastiness, and anything else that gets in my way while hiding behind my drop pods from the other section of the enemy army. 23 combi-plasmas in rapid fire range will kill an average of 26 marines on the drop, plus the 6 combi melta armed marines shooting boltguns (the melta weps will be saved for tanks unless the enemy dont have any) will kill 4 more, making 30 dead marines in total, which should be enough to deal a crippling wound to the enemy from which they will never recover. From there, Gate of Infinity will be used to fly round the battlefield dealing with other nuisances.

For this tactic though, are the combi weapons worth it? They're costing me 145pts in total. If I were to get rid of them and drop the epistolary upgrade that would give me enough points to make both tactical squads 10 men and give them meltaguns and lascannons (just incase a tank runs off once the drop pods arrive).

Would the increase in troops be worth dropping the combi-weapons? They increase the effectiveness of the squad by quite a bit, but are frightfully expensive...

Well...

The tactic I usually see listed is having only one small (5) Sternguard, with combi-melta and meltaguns, dropped in with the intent of hitting something big/nasty/expensive, a kind of suicide shot to take out an LR, get a few wounds on an MC, anything that might be of particular threat.

Now the Special Ammo rule for Sternguard already give you a fine AP3 option so if that's your primary concern, just dealing with 3+ armor saves, you can likely pass on the combi-plas. 2+ armor saves, on the other hand, would require the Oomf of Combi-plas/melta or outright meltaguns or plasma guns.

Either way, you're dumping a LOT of points into three squads that, depending on what you're up against, could be completely obliterated very very quickly, either by massed fire, overwhelming CC, or special/nasty weapons.

And with only 2 Troop choices, and depending on the nature of the fight (KPs or Objs) you could easily find yourself screwed real fast if those Tac squads get blasted early.

Why would you use combi plasma when melta is better alround?

cmagee79 wrote:Well...

The tactic I usually see listed is having only one small (5) Sternguard, with combi-melta and meltaguns, dropped in with the intent of hitting something big/nasty/expensive, a kind of suicide shot to take out an LR, get a few wounds on an MC, anything that might be of particular threat.

Now the Special Ammo rule for Sternguard already give you a fine AP3 option so if that's your primary concern, just dealing with 3+ armor saves, you can likely pass on the combi-plas. 2+ armor saves, on the other hand, would require the Oomf of Combi-plas/melta or outright meltaguns or plasma guns.

Either way, you're dumping a LOT of points into three squads that, depending on what you're up against, could be completely obliterated very very quickly, either by massed fire, overwhelming CC, or special/nasty weapons.

Hmm, 5 sternguard with combi-meltas/meltaguns and a drop pod is 185pts....quite a lot for a suicide shot, though each to their own I guess.

Comparing 23 combi plas (death count of 26 marines on average) with 23 boltguns with ap3 (16 dead marines on average) shows a fair few more marines killed with the plasma, and on a drop pod, it's the initial drop that really counts. Though this is the big dilemma, alas- spend 145pts on combi-weapons, or use those points (+ the epistolary points) to make the marines 10 men strong each which will really help when going for objectives.

Or just drop the Sternguard entirely and go for some other unit to pod down? I'm not commited to the Sternguard by any means(I haven't bought any models yet) but I am commited to a drop pod army.

Sternguard_rock wrote:Why would you use combi plasma when melta is better alround?

Only at killing vehicles.

SMSternguard wrote:
Hmm, 5 sternguard with combi-meltas/meltaguns and a drop pod is 185pts....quite a lot for a suicide shot, though each to their own I guess.

Comparing 23 combi plas (death count of 26 marines on average) with 23 boltguns with ap3 (16 dead marines on average) shows a fair few more marines killed with the plasma, and on a drop pod, it's the initial drop that really counts. Though this is the big dilemma, alas- spend 145pts on combi-weapons, or use those points (+ the epistolary points) to make the marines 10 men strong each which will really help when going for objectives.

Or just drop the Sternguard entirely and go for some other unit to pod down? I'm not commited to the Sternguard by any means(I haven't bought any models yet) but I am commited to a drop pod army.

I suppose it would depend on what else you could potentially field. And even 185 points to take out a 250 point LR isn't a bad trade, more so if something now has to slog it across the field rather than riding around in relative comfort of AV 14 walls.
I'm still toying with fielding a small Sternguard, meltaguns/combi-meltas or plas or even flamers.
Mmmmm.... 5 Flamer templates.

I would recommend dropping the Null Field and getting Force Dome instead to give your Sternguard an invuln save. With AP3 already cutting out armor, the majority of what you are shooting at won't have an invuln save.
I would also go with combi-meltas instead of plasma or at least flip the spread to 2 plasmas, 8/7 meltas.
One good tactic I see is when the sternguard disembarks from the drop pod they combat squad and the first half pops a vehicle with combi-melta's and the second half shoots the snot out of the troops that were inside. Then the next turn, the other combat squad pops another nearby vehicle while the other side cleans up the troops.

I didn't think you could combat-squad a unit and have them both occupy the same transport. Could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

cmagee79 wrote:I didn't think you could combat-squad a unit and have them both occupy the same transport. Could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

You can in drop pods- put a squad of 10 in the drop pod, and they may split into combat squads when disembarking. P51 Codex Space Marines.

I suppose it would depend on what else you could potentially field. And even 185 points to take out a 250 point LR isn't a bad trade, more so if something now has to slog it across the field rather than riding around in relative comfort of AV 14 walls.
I'm still toying with fielding a small Sternguard, meltaguns/combi-meltas or plas or even flamers.
Mmmmm.... 5 Flamer templates.

True enough, guess it depends on playstyle.

pavonis wrote:I would recommend dropping the Null Field and getting Force Dome instead to give your Sternguard an invuln save. With AP3 already cutting out armor, the majority of what you are shooting at won't have an invuln save.
I would also go with combi-meltas instead of plasma or at least flip the spread to 2 plasmas, 8/7 meltas.
One good tactic I see is when the sternguard disembarks from the drop pod they combat squad and the first half pops a vehicle with combi-melta's and the second half shoots the snot out of the troops that were inside. Then the next turn, the other combat squad pops another nearby vehicle while the other side cleans up the troops.

That's generally the plan, although I hoped that the plasmas would be enough to deal with most tanks, with the meltas only taking part against big nasty AV14 stuff.

There seems to be popular consensus on this, so what about if I went 2 meltas/3 combi-meltas/5 plasmas? Split into combat squads then one lot of meltas can destroy a vehicle while the plasmas easily kill the stuff inside? 8 or 9 meltaguns would surely be excessive?

Argh, after all this discussion, it has suddenly been brought to my attention that Space Marine Tactical Squads need to be 10 men strong to purchase a drop pod.

That seriously throws a whole new light on what to take. Guess it's the end of the line for the combi weapons then- either that, or dropping a squad of Sturnguard.

Without combi-meltas your army has no way to deal with tanks. Combi-plasmas wont guarantee the death of a vehicle in one salvo and so cant be used as your primary anti-tank. Combi-meltas, as long as theyre in range will kill every vehicle easily, except monoliths. Combi-meltas are also better against MCs and can one-shot nob bikers and enemy characters. Combi-plasmas are only better at killing marines, which is something a sternguard heavy list should have no problem doing.

In response to the original question; yes.

Regwon wrote:Without combi-meltas your army has no way to deal with tanks. Combi-plasmas wont guarantee the death of a vehicle in one salvo and so cant be used as your primary anti-tank. Combi-meltas, as long as theyre in range will kill every vehicle easily, except monoliths. Combi-meltas are also better against MCs and can one-shot nob bikers and enemy characters. Combi-plasmas are only better at killing marines, which is something a sternguard heavy list should have no problem doing.

Let's assume the meltagun is within 6" of the target (drop pods make that a tolerable assumption, though one's opponents may have something to say about it).

0.6667 hit

AV 14: 58.333% penetrate (non-monoliths)
AV 13: 72.222% penetrate
AV 12: 83.333% penetrate
AV 12 (waveserpent): 33.333% penetrate

On penetrating hits, 50% of results will destroy the target.

A "guaranteed kill" is fairly problematic.

Janthkin wrote:

Regwon wrote:Without combi-meltas your army has no way to deal with tanks. Combi-plasmas wont guarantee the death of a vehicle in one salvo and so cant be used as your primary anti-tank. Combi-meltas, as long as theyre in range will kill every vehicle easily, except monoliths. Combi-meltas are also better against MCs and can one-shot nob bikers and enemy characters. Combi-plasmas are only better at killing marines, which is something a sternguard heavy list should have no problem doing.

Let's assume the meltagun is within 6" of the target (drop pods make that a tolerable assumption, though one's opponents may have something to say about it).

0.6667 hit

AV 14: 58.333% penetrate (non-monoliths)
AV 13: 72.222% penetrate
AV 12: 83.333% penetrate
AV 12 (waveserpent): 33.333% penetrate

On penetrating hits, 50% of results will destroy the target.

A "guaranteed kill" is fairly problematic.

Will not 4-8 combi-meltas do it though?

This list is gack for lack of troops. Gotta have the sterngaurd as troops char if you are going to win.

As for the combis, you are well overpaying for those plasma guns. Take 3 meltas and call it a day. You are already paying so much for their special ammo, you should shoot it.

I really think the best way to use sterngurad in DPs is do the 1 10 man sterngurad squad loaded to the gills with combi-meltas and 2 dreadnoughts in DPs (you need 2 more drop pod to make sure the 2 dreads and stern come out first round). But now you give your opp. a choice, do I shoot at the 10 man squad of guys who will make my tanks go boom and shred my troops or do I shoot the big walkers that will rip my stuff to shreads. Having to make people make that choice gives you a big advantage.