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HQ: Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer -120
Troop: 4 scouts, 3 sniper rifles, 1 heavy bolter, sergeant Telion, camo cloaks - 150
Troop: 10 tacticals w/ multi-melta, flamer, rhino - 205
Troop: 10 tacticals w/ multi-melta, flamer, rhino - 205
Elite: Iron-Clad Dreadnought w/ heavy flamer - 145
Heavy: Predator w/ heavy bolters - 85
Heavy: Pradator w/ heavy bolters - 85

Total score - 995 points

MoF goes with the scouts in a fortified area of terrain and he blasts off long range conversion beamers. The Rhinos and Predators wall up, using smoke to give each other cover saves, and the dread runs in the back, putting his front armor in the back to thwart deep striking demons trying to go for rear armor shots. The Tacticals can deal with armor and infantry with their special weapons, and can sit on objectives.

In higher points games, I drop the iron clad/flamer from the dreadnought, and put in two more of them.

Why do people take Telion, sheesh. I can sympathize, I bought him when he came out. Drop the scouts and go 3 meltabikes or 2 speeders with HB/MM. The speed will allow you to react to stuff quicker. A 50 pts Attack bike has the highest chance at 12" to pop a AV14 vehicle and they can really put the hurt on T4 biker nobz (bike toughness doesn't count for instadeath, they are still a 4). Play with the substitution once, I swear you'll never go back.

eltharion72 wrote:Why do people take Telion, sheesh. I can sympathize, I bought him when he came out. Drop the scouts and go 3 meltabikes or 2 speeders with HB/MM. The speed will allow you to react to stuff quicker. A 50 pts Attack bike has the highest chance at 12" to pop a AV14 vehicle and they can really put the hurt on T4 biker nobz (bike toughness doesn't count for instadeath, they are still a 4). Play with the substitution once, I swear you'll never go back.

Why do you think Telion is bad? He gives some good support to the unit that is going to be sitting at long range and shooting the whole time.

I'm gonna disagree with eltharion on the scouts, I think you should definitely leave them in. With Camo Cloaks they can sit in terrain on top of an objective and go to ground any time anyone sneezes at them for an insane cover save. I think the list is very solid just as it is, you've got the Meltas on the Tac squads, the MotF with Conversion Beamer, and the Dread to deal with Mech. You've got the Flamers on the squads, H Flamer on the dread, and Predators to deal with Horde, and you've got speed / mech of your own. Seems like a very solid list that should be able to handle pretty much anything anyone can throw at you at 1000 points.

The only thing I would is swap the Iron-Clad for a regular Dread with Heavy Flamer and Multimelta, so that he has some ranged Tank-Busting too. That leaves you with some extra points though, so I dunno. Maybe another scout or two for that unit.

Telion gives the stealth USR. The camo-cloaks are a redundency, they already get the ability confered by the cloaks from telion. (buy an extra scout, perhaps?)

Looks pretty sweet.. the only thing Id say could improve the list is a drop pod for the ironclad. Just becaus it means he can get stuck in with his short-ranged weaponary early on.

But ya, otherwise.. everything is gold.

N.b to TehCheator - they do not need to go-to-ground, if they are in the terrain piece that have been fortifyed by the MotF. 4+ cover + ( -1 for the MotF) + (-1 for the stealth USR confered by thier telion or the camo cloaks) = 2+ cover save. Very sweet indeed I think.

Razerous wrote:N.b to TehCheator - they do not need to go-to-ground, if they are in the terrain piece that have been fortifyed by the MotF. 4+ cover + ( -1 for the MotF) + (-1 for the stealth USR confered by thier telion or the camo cloaks) = 2+ cover save. Very sweet indeed I think.

Ahh, good point. I'm at work and don't have the codex with me, forgot about the fortified terrain piece. That makes the scouts + Telion even better.

I do not dislike Telion as much as he can't earn back his points. The 50-70 pts character upgrades to squads are not worth taking. The kill ratio is .83 for your scout squad ( 6 man squad including Telion ( (5 shots scouts )2 shots telion/BS4 & 3 STR"X", assuming enemy has a 4+ armorsave) vs kill a ratio of 1.58 ( assuming T4-6, with no Invuln. saves) for 3 meltabikes at same cost. They move quicker, have a better save (your cover save is reliant on cover, which means no movement and most armies are quick now with the run rule), are harder to wound and can take down a land raider as well as insta-kill T4. I think the bikes win for cost effectiveness. The scouts are dependant on your enemy leaving you alone while your counting on good dice rolls to even the odds.

Well, I happen to already own a multi-melta bike right now, and I haven't gotten around to purchasing the sniper scouts/telion. I'm also going to be buying a Ravenwing box, the bikes for a different list entirely, the land speeder for bumping this list up to 1500/1750, and I could use that attack bike along with another one to make up this nasty turbo-boosting squad. I'm a big fan of the models.

However, when I get up to larger game, I'm re-instating the squad. I don't care how well they "make their points back", 2+ cover save means I can drop them on an objective in my side of the field, and pretty much not worry about them. I like that.

eltharion72 wrote:I do not dislike Telion as much as he can't earn back his points. The 50-70 pts character upgrades to squads are not worth taking. The kill ratio is .83 for your scout squad ( 6 man squad including Telion ( (5 shots scouts )2 shots telion/BS4 & 3 STR"X", assuming enemy has a 4+ armorsave) vs kill a ratio of 1.58 ( assuming T4-6, with no Invuln. saves) for 3 meltabikes at same cost. They move quicker, have a better save (your cover save is reliant on cover, which means no movement and most armies are quick now with the run rule), are harder to wound and can take down a land raider as well as insta-kill T4. I think the bikes win for cost effectiveness. The scouts are dependant on your enemy leaving you alone while your counting on good dice rolls to even the odds.

Your talking about pure numbers where it doesnt really apply. Telion is expensive not because (although factor in the camo-cloaks that you dont have to buy so that makes him slightly cheaper aswell as improving the scouts in other ways too) he is very kill. Yes points-worth in attack bikes would be more killy.

It is the ability to be killy-specific. Want a lascannon in a full tac-squad gone, ask telion. Want a wounded chappy in a termie sqaud dead, ask telion. Want to kill that warlock in a big heap of guardains, ask telion. Etc.. Etc.. etc.

CENArtDamage wrote:However, when I get up to larger game, I'm re-instating the squad. I don't care how well they "make their points back", 2+ cover save means I can drop them on an objective in my side of the field, and pretty much not worry about them. I like that.

This is why they are good and why I don't think you should drop them in this list. Yes, a 3 MM attack bike squad will kill more and be more effective at killing tanks, but they (a) aren't scoring and (b) don't have a 2+ cover save. You take the scout squad to drop them on an objective and know that you have that objective handled (since if you they are charging your scouts, you've already lost the game).

You've also got Tank-Killing pretty well handled for 1000 points, between the Conversion Beamer, 2 Multi-meltas, and the dreadnaught.

Without them, you have 2 scoring units (4 if you combat squad) in the army, and they are just tactical marines who aren't that hard to kill or move off an objective.

True story. My biggest worry is that my main opponent is a fething daemon player. They just show up everywhere, and assault on the second turn they are out. This makes me scouts vulnerable EVERYWHERE

Sure, that's a possibility, but Daemons have other problems (like you know, being completely owned by the dice gods). Plus, if they are fighting your scouts, they aren't assaulting your other units, which is probably good for you, since you get extra rounds of shooting against them.

How do the numbers of being able to hit and kill your targets not apply? Isn't that how the game is won? Take your opponents resorces and deny him the objectives through denial? I know Telions special ability, when you rely on a model that has to shoot 10 times ( I can't remember if he has hellfire rounds which would decrease the number of shots needed to 3) to wound a T4, armor 4+ target. Then you really are relying on dice. If scouts are the flavor of the army I can see doing in a friendly list but there are better ways to spend points. I also understand squad and army synergies and I am still perfecting my understanding through playing differnet squads, but scouts have let me down time and time again, playing in the manner like your suggesting using them.

Seriously, I'd back the call for MM Attack bikes. This list is labelled competitive, and three such bikes would be far more competitive than Telion = Scouts. I can field 6 vehicles at 1000 points with my Sisters - and IMHO I think you would find that list hard to face- especially as the Tactical squads will be embarked for a while. Extra insurance versus Soul Grinders, other Ironclads, Land Raiders.

Telion is a litle too expensive, 150 for 5 models - especially with the abundance of cover - ignoring weaponry around (such as Flamers (Daemons), flamers, Whirlwinds, Sternguard etc.) is not worth it.

Personally I don't think the Master of the Forge is worth it in this list - one range reliant, LOS reliant shot - go for something cheap. Try and get a Vindicator in as a play-test option.