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GW can't seem to decide what they want to do about instant death.

On one hand it makes sense, an anti-tank missile will kill a person, no matter how tough or big.

On the other it make multiwound creatures too vulnerable to powerfists and other S8 attacks.

So they hand out 'eternal warrior' and T5 like it's candy.

So my suggestion.

Weapons that are double your toughness do d3 wounds.
Weapons that are more than double your toughness do d6 wounds.

So S8 weapons are still scary for T4 multiple wound creatures but not a death sentence.

kyoto, i like this idea
could have weapons that function like the WHFB cannon.
for example;

missile launcher (krak) S8 Heavy 1 D3 wounds against anything T4 or lower.

would solve a few problems, allthough skulltaker wouldnt be able to kill a fex out of synapse as easily

I'd like to see weapons that roll multiple dice vs. vehicles and ordinance cause two wounds or roll to wound twice.

Ordnance should ALWAYS do +d3 wounds, imnsho.

KK, this is an excellent idea.

Only if those wounds couldn't be saved against (not even invulnerable).

Personally I'd be happeir with something simpler, i.e. anything which would cause instant death (as it is now) inflicts 5 wounds on the target model, saves apply (or not) as normal for the attack.

Its possible 5 is too high or too low, would need to playtest to determine for sure. I went with 5 as that's the largest number of wounds I can recall any model having.

This allows instant death weapons to be very good at killing individuals (even single wound models) but allows the other characteristics of those models to help protect them (i.e. saves).

No Eternal Warrior (as it falls into the bad rule design I've heard called 'an exception to an exception').

Jack

A very reasonable idea, though I wouldn't want it to ever do less than 2 Wounds to an affected model. So, maybe 1+D3? No need to kill Instant Death as it is, I actually don't see Eternal Warrior that much, or T5 (though I wouldn't mind seeing it even less).

Here is my idea ( for ranged only atm )

Every weapon with str double the targets toughness
gets + 1 ( or 2 ) to AP.

LunaHound wrote:Here is my idea ( for ranged only atm )

Every weapon with str double the targets toughness
gets + 1 ( or 2 ) to AP.

that be nice for daemons we need Eternal Warrior to make up for that fact that most of are models have a 5+ save , while still being more likely to put the wound on a multi-wound model and still there being a point to taking models with more then one wound.

I would also vote for something a tad simpler.

How about a wep that deals instant death deals the number of wounds equal to that of the model +1 or +2. Models with Eternal Warrior reduces this number by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Most str guns that cause instant death are AP 4 or less anyway so there is no need to raise the AP of the guns besides with cover being so common these days would lowering the ap really matter much? I would be opposed to the idea of instant death wep ingoring invounerable saves though.

Casper wrote:I would also vote for something a tad simpler.

How about a wep that deals instant death deals the number of wounds equal to that of the model +1 or +2. Models with Eternal Warrior reduces this number by 1 to a minimum of

1. At that point wouldn't it be simpler to just have them deal 2 wounds.

Casper wrote:

Most str guns that cause instant death are AP 4 or less anyway so there is no need to raise the AP of the guns besides with cover being so common these days would lowering the ap really matter much? I would be opposed to the idea of instant death wep ingoring invounerable saves though.

Most units with Eternal Warrior have a invulnerable save so it gives them a reason to take cover.

I like the rule and I agree with the logic behind its design.

How about we just make it a special rule, call it “durable” or whatever you like, and assign it to units that deserve the modification like daemon host, chaos spawns, daemons and ogryen. That way we can still have insta-kill for the regular units that would logically have no change taking high strength hits, while deserving units can have special recognition.

How would that be different from Eternal Warrior ?

I'd probably make it so that a model wounded by a weapon that causes Instant Death instead takes a separate save for each wound, instead of losing all the wounds together if one save is failed.

I don't like the half the time a force field can make railguns bounce off and half the time it's not even on.

A lot of multi-wound models don't have invul. saves though.

deviant cadaver wrote:How would that be different from Eternal Warrior ?

It would create a middle ground between normal and eternal warrior. Ogryn with "durable" would not be insta-killed by power fist but would take 1 to 3 wounds. With Eternal Warrior you have situations where a character can take a pulsar lance to the face and only lose one wound, whereas this rule actually takes the strength of the weapon into account. Consider it a toned down eternal warrior if you like, but it certain units would benefit from such a rule both in gameplay and fluff.

Fafnir wrote:Only if those wounds couldn't be saved against (not even invulnerable).

I agree with this. The new rules thay was suggested would be good but this factor would have to come first.

Weapons that are double your toughness do d3 wounds.
Weapons that are more than double your toughness do d6 wounds.

I like this, at least my Living St. with her toughness of a whopping 3 would have a chance of surviving an autocannon.

I like the rule, though I would modify the numbers a bit. Maybe =toughness deal 2 wounds and >toughness deals 1+d3. I think it should always do at least 2 wounds. If you hit a meganob with a str8 weap and they failed their save, then it didn't die, you would be pissed. As you should be. And at the same time, I don't think it should have the potential to do 6 wounds. I can't think of an example to use here, but I think if you have a model with W4 T4, and you're going to take away eternal warrior, then with the 1d6 idea, it would have a 50% chance of dying instantly, which seams like a rip. As opposed to only 33% with 1+1d3.

I don't see what's wrong with the current ID rules. They're easy, quick and pretty fair in my opinion. T 4 or less models shouldn't be running around by themselves to get popped by a lascannon, and they should also rightly fear power fists and other nasties that people spend a good deal of points for.

I agree to a certain extent that theres an issue with eternal warrior being so common. I don't see a need for it on any model that only has 1 wound, like half my daemon codex has. That said, I think that's the more simple solution, just make it rarer. Don't put it on everybody and their brother. Maybe one or two things in a codex, with a possible select exceptions (daemons, avatar, c'tan, wraithlord).

I also see a bit of a problem with units that rely on your opponent failing a morale test of some sort for their primary defense or offence to work, and so many opponents having fearless. For instance, flayed ones Terrifying Visage. It's great, if your not constantly facing things with high LD and fearless. Too many times they give you an ability, and make the counter to it way too common.