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Both these tanks are about the same points and I can't decide which to go for in my Panzergrenadier and Panzer companies.

Both have good guns and armour but they are different beasts so does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

Tough call, I dont really have much experience so can only go with some theoryhammer type opinions, but personally I'd lean towards the Tigers (assuming you are going for 2 each). While the Jagpanther is a very nice option, the extra firepower is probably not going to be hugely useful against most allied stuff you'll face unless you play a lot of soviet armour forces. The tigers have a little bit more anti-infantry firepower, are slightly cheaper (215 instead of 235) but most importantly have tiger ace skills which really tips the balance in their favour. The extra side armour helps too but maybe that's just me being paranoid. The Jagpanthers look less scary on the board which can be either to your advantage against people who are not used to facing them, or to your detriment as they dont hold the same psychological weight when holding an area. Plus tigers are tigers - they look great

Thanks LB some good points there. I’m just playing around with bumping up my 1,500 point armies (9.SS Panzer & Panzergrenadier) up to 1,750 (a theoretical game size as none of my opponents have suggested playing this points size) so It will be just one of each per company.

My opponents have the following armies:

British Rifle Company x 2 (FE2)
British Airlanding Company (D-1)
German Panzerkompanie (FE2)
US Armoured (Hell on Wheels) Company (Cobra)

So even though I do not encounter any Soviet forces I do encounter heavy armour in the form of Churchil VII’s, Crocodiles and Tigers while at the same time I will encounter large groups of well trained infantry.

To my mind both tanks have benefits over the other.

Tiger: Excellent side and top armour (8/2) and Wide tracks and two machineguns make the Tiger the superior tank vs. infantry and the AT13 gun can handle all but the heaviest tanks with ease. It is however slow and Tiger skills aren’t always useful.

Jagpanther: Faster than the Tiger with better front armour (10 vs. 9). The Jagpanther is capable of destroying any tank with its AT 16 gun it does have a weak side and top armour (5/1) which may make it an artillery target. It is also poorer at crossing terrain than the tiger.

Jagpanthers are also crewed by Heer crew and so cannot gain rerolls on morale checks from the CC and test with a lower rating in an SS force.

Maybe a Jagpanther for the Panzergrenadiercompanie and a Tiger for the SS panzercompanie?

George Spiggott wrote:Maybe a Jagpanther for the Panzergrenadiercompanie and a Tiger for the SS panzercompanie?

Good points, and your above quote does indeed seem like the best option.

I think I'll start with the tiger, it is quite an iconic beast as you say.

Well historically speaking the Jagdpanther was a tank hunter, used primarily for defensive purposes, so if you are going for a mobile on the attack force I would take a Tiger I over the Jagdpanther and vise versa if I was using a defensive tank force.

If you needed to ask then always choose the tank over the tank destroyer.

Because the question of choice was so loose, i.e. not specific to a scenario or existing list then take the tank because the tank is more versatile.

Besides the tank is a Tiger 1, there is very little it cannot deal directly with anyway.

frankly due to the low numbers and high cost of german units if you want tank destroyers youn are better off tasking Stug III's instead of a Jagdpanther, the whole point of a tank destroyer is that it is cheaper, that monster costs more not less and is a beast for a very specific role.

Jagdpanthers are better left for when you know you are to be facing massed Russian armour. also it pays to buy some anti aircraft to protect it.

frankly due to the low numbers and high cost of german units if you want tank destroyers youn are better off tasking Stug III's instead of a Jagdpanther, the whole point of a tank destroyer is that it is cheaper, that monster costs more not less and is a beast for a very specific role.

Not true, StuG IIIs cannot handle heavy tanks and only really out perform standard Shermans and Panzer IV's. Guderian never played FoW it seems. If I'm defending against tanks then Panzerjägers and Anti tank guns give more 'bang for my buck'.

My qunadry is that while the JagPanther puts the fear into Heavy British and German tanks (I fight blue on blue battles) it is more vunerable to artillery and infantry. The Tiger is more survivable against non-direct attacks but offers little over Pak40's or Panthers in terms of Firepower.

The lists @ 1500 points:

9. SS Panzerkompanie

Command Sturmgeschütz IIIG (110)
Sturmgeschütz IIIG (3x) (325)
Panther A (3x) (640)
SS Scout platoon (3x Squads w/ Panzerfaust) (180)
Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm) (2x) (125)
Armoured Car Platoon (SdKfz 250 & SdKfz 250/9 2x) (120)

Total = 1500

Panzergrenadierkpmpanie

Command (2x Panzerknacker & Panzershreck) (80)
Panzergrenadier Platoon (3x Squads) (205)
Panzergrenadier Platoon (3x Squads) (205)
7.5cm PaK40 (3x) (170)
Panzerpioneer (2x Squads & Stuka zu Fuss) 280
Brummbär (3x) (210)
Panzerwerfer 42 w/extra crew (4x) (250)
SdKfz 234/2 Puma (2x) (100)

Total = 1500

Well if you are facing other German then all bets are off and should be. Historical references then no longer apply. You need something big in case you meet a Konigtiger (how many points are they by the way).

By 'Warhammerising' the game a lot of historicity disappears because of 'civil wars' and 'free for alls'. But fun is fun and so no critique.

I would say that mismatches are likely. Soviet vs British will not be fun as the British have not enough raw firepower to get through the tank after tank Soviets can throw. There are answers 17/25's Sherman Fireflies etc but you would end up with a 'codex creep' as everyone makes armies to try and deal with all comers.

Perhaps you need two sets of lists, one for historical content and one for free for all battles.

Konigstiger is 340 points, Elefant is 300 points. 4 Konigstigers is the most expensive platoon in the game I think.

I am suprised you can get three Brummbar for 210pts, are you sure that is not a typo.

No he is right, p49 of fortress europe, 310 points for 3.

Yep, 70 points each.

I'd like each of my armies to be Historical(esque) and game proof (but not too gamey) My eventual plan is to have three (the two I have and a Sperrverband) self contained armies that can be played at 600, 1,500 and 2,000 points each.

I've just picked up some Peter Pig Pak40's to add to my Panzergrenadiers and some StuG crew and skurzen to customise my Open Fire StuG IIIGs.

When I pick up the four Panzerwerfers this weekend at Triples (local gaming convention) both my armies will be complete 1,500 point armies.

Id like both tanks and have four of each one small thing that makes me chose a tiger more that the others is the "tiger ace skills" those can be sweet sometimes.

I have a question for you guys, BF has decided to host late war events at 1750 have you been building your forces to the new standard?

Nope, I've never been to an event nor am I planning to.

George Spiggott wrote:Nope, I've never been to an event nor am I planning to.

The question was about build totals not if you attend events

I do like the new 1750 build total-

Oops. It was just a number off the top of my head between 1,500 (my current army) and 2,000 (a little too large for a 6x4 table. I'd heard 1850 was popular.

I went with the Tiger 1e in the end. I'll see how it plays tomorrow.

Hey how about a list of your army and some pictures.

My FoW stuff is my current painting project so I may post some pics soon. I've attached my army lists for FoW to this post as an .xls file so you'll need Excel to read it.

The Tiger is in the 1,500 point Panzergrenadier list.

Is 1500pts the most common size for games? I've been building up a totenkopf/wiking panzer force with panzer IV's and Panthers (and a platoon of StuGs if i play as Wiking SS) but the 5x Panthers alone cost in the region of 1k points in River of Heroes. It really wouldn't be viable to play with 7 tanks if 1500pts is the most common size, so maybe i need to rethink my order of battle.

It depends on where you play and who you play with. 1500 and 1750 are the most common force sizes, though some players seem to be creeping toward a round 2000.

With a Jagdpanther, you don't get Panzer Ace Skills do you? Noak is super expensive, for me with SS I would go with Tiger a Fearless, Veteran Tiger with a random tiger ace skill is an Enemy to be feared.

I'll be playing at a gaming club in Chester so i think it's a good mix of nations and forces. I'm relying on 5 panzer IV's with Fritz Biermeyer, up to 5 Panthers, a handful of StuGs, the obligatory panzergrens with opel trucks and a recce platoon, i'll see how they work out against the Russians and work on the list from there. Any obvious suggestions that i've missed? A schwere panzer company with konigstigers is definitely something i want to put together after uni.

George Spiggott wrote:Tiger: Excellent side and top armour (8/2) and Wide tracks and two machineguns make the Tiger the superior tank vs. infantry and the AT13 gun can handle all but the heaviest tanks with ease. It is however slow and Tiger skills aren’t always useful.

I find the Jagdpanthers overpriced for their survivability, especially against forces that are likely to have a lot of artillery like Brits.

While the Tiger skills aren't *always* useful, they are useful more often than not and just that chance to get the right skill for the right game is worth the admission price in my book.

All of my other thoughts have pretty much been brought up in the thread already so I won't waste people's time rehashing them in another post about tanks over tankhunters.

Skriker