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So I am thinking a bit about footslogging Eldar for 1500 or maybe 1650/ 1750 and I was thinking about squad sizes. So this is what I am thinking.

A squad of 12 guys + Warlock, or 13 bodies has to lose 7 before being below half. If you give them Conceal, they have to take about 10 wounding hits before they lose the 7. So you make about 3 or 4 Conceal saves, which is about 30 or so points. You pay 40 to take the Conceal and you get the Witchblade of course. And the 4++. They then run off the table plunking the Starcannon if they do not get cut down in close combat.

A squad of 14 guys + Warlock is about the same. If you take the full squad, 20 + 1 needs to lose 11, which would mean that about 5 or 6 made their 5+ save. This is a bit better obviously, although maybe at this size you want to start looking at say Dire Avengers.

So you could do this.

3x 10x Guardians (no Warlock)
Starcannon

// 315 points

Or you could do this.

2x 13x Guardians (w/ Conceal)
Starcannon
// 322 points

If they eat a face full of bolter-fire, the 11 man squads evaporate. 20 x 4/6 x 4/6 = 9 dead, with the gun crew being the last to survive. Although they now roll their leadership below half on an 8 rather than a 7. The Conceal squads can always roll, and they tend to stick around until they run off the table.

So does anyone have any thoughts. I am thinking of using (probably) 3x or even 4x 10 man squads to bring some Starcannon hurt to the table. Dire Avengers, probably with an Autarch in small games behind them. They get a cover save and so do (I am guessing, I did not look it up) D-Cannon crew, which could take Embolden and use the Warlock's BS4. No Wraith units, so you do not need the Wraithsight.

Three squads is probably enough, with Dark Reapers or else take Warwalkers or double Prisms in Heavy.

First..no starcannons....with as much 4+ cover as there is on the table in 5th ed, their 2 shots with AP2 is stupidly overcosted. You are far better off to take Scatterlasers, especially in Guardian spam lists.

Second, never take Conceal in 5th ed for Guardians. Again, there is plenty of 4+ cover around, so paying for a 5+ cover save is rather silly. You are MUCH better off to give the Warlock Embolden, in order to help your scoring units stick around.

So you want to take the weakest troop choice in the game (no lie) with the weakest weapon choice in the codex (and expensive to boot)... good luck with that.

If you want foot guardians take a weapon that gives them an important role in your army. Take bright lances for lucky shots against AV 14, take scatter lasers to pop light transports and help kill infantry (even space marines and terminators) take EMLs to have a blast weapon that pins (and isn't as hindered by BS3) while still having anti-vehicle capabilities.

The only role that star cannons have is anti-terminator, which a scatter laser does nearly as well simply due to volume of fire, and the fact that the terminators get a 5+ invulnerabe, even if they don't have cove.

It's my thread so I should respond. Shooting at Marines in the open, Starcannons are better than Scatterlasers. They are the same against 5+ (forests) and otherwise Scatterlasers are better. They of course are better against say Honour Guard.

They also ignore FNP, which makes them equal to Scatterlasers against anything FNP even before armour saves. They are better against Tyranid MC. Basically they are not bad.

I used to like Scatterlasers because of Land Speeders but the emphasis is definately tilted towards Troop and Objectives. They are also good for taking out Assault Squads, which includes Death Company.

So they are not bad. Most army lists will have something high save/ FNP that is a priority target, and they are cool. They are good against bikes, too.

That is not to say Bright Lances and EML are not good choices.

So that is my reasoning on Starcannons, which are not that much more expensive for what could WHO KNOWS be a game-breaker.

But I was really interested in was thoughts on squad sizes, if anything.

Tacobake wrote:It's my thread so I should respond. Shooting at Marines in the open, Starcannons are better than Scatterlasers. They are the same against 5+ (forests) and otherwise Scatterlasers are better. They of course are better against say Honour Guard.

First off, forests are now 4+save, as is most terrain in the game. They were 5+ in 4th, but no longer. Almost all terrain is 4+ nowadays (or better), so MEQs will get a save most of the time against Starcannons. Remeber, they can even screen their important units with other units in order to gain a 4+ cover save while in the open.

Second, in the hands or Guardians, you will only hit with one shot on average per Starcannon, per turn...for the extra cost, it is pointless to take them. Torrent of fire is the way to kill things (especially MEQs) for Eldar now, and that means Scatterlasers. They are far cheaper when you start to buy large quantities, and they give you double the shots..remember you have to actaully hit before you can wound. If you want to kill FNP units, then hit them with Fire Dragons, Prisms, Banshees, Harlies or WLs...not an abundance of SCs.

Sure, back before the newest Eldar dex, Starcannons reigned supreme. With 3 shots and alot of cover only granting a 5+ save, they were tough to beat...now, they are garbage.

If you want to take SCs, then go ahead, but you are truly gimping yourself in 5th ed.

Finally, 10 man Guardian Defender units are fine. However, they must have a Warlock, and he must have Embolden..otherwise you have just handed your opponent an easy KP, made them far easier to break and run from objective, and wasted your points.

Um, by the rule book Forests are 4+. The majority of cover is now 4+, which brings the scatterlaser back out top.

I think that Starcannons have their uses like you said, but only on extremely mobile platforms like skimmers. They have the speed to ensure that they have a clear LOS to deny a cover save to the unit.

Guardians will most likely not have the mobility to ensure that their weapon will be used to its greatest effect. Thus, scatterlasers might a better buy.

But for your purposes, I like many small squads of guardians supported by an Avatar. Shooting losses do not matter so much and you now have more independent scoring units. Plus with cover saves being easier to obtain, conceal does not seem as great as it use to be.

^^

My bad, regarding forests. They still come out even and are better against units in the open although they are a bit more expensive. It is true regarding Torrent of Fire, especially against Combat Squads.

But I still like them. .

Maybe I should get some games in with them, in 5th edition.

For guardians in the open, 14 is the break point where conceal becomes a better value than just buying more guardian bodies. So your math is right on that point. But even in 3rd conceal was so expensive that few players gave it to every guardian squad--just a couple of the big ones.

I recently saw a tournament game where an old 3rd edition Eldar starcannon spam army got a lucky draw and faced a deathwing army and tabled him. Depending on your metagame, your milage may vary on what you get out of starcannons, since people don't expect to see them anymore. But they are also overcosted for what they do.