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I have some questions regarding true line of sight, the slightly confusing rule GW released in their sea of abstracts.

We're supposed to go down on eye level with the models, correct? And from there, determine what the model itself can see. This is all good in theory, but in practice it's usually realy hard, especially when you do not have 100% immaculate terrain like me and my friends run. Does other units block line of sight, for example, a friendly squad? Or can you always count as being able to fire through them, even though they do actually block line of sight? I know it gives cover save to fire through another unit. Can you argue that they do not grant cover save if they do not obscure any of the enemy models? (could be argued for say, firing through a terminator squad spread out a lot). Or do you just gain a 4+ invul save for just firing through the coherency of any squad, as an abstract way of saying that they are moving around in your field of fire?

How is it with terrain? Patches of wood and ruins can be real hard to judge. We've got some woods of very thick warhammer fantasy trees, bunched together very closely. In the past, we used to put squads inside it, or even lift away the wood and mark its position with a squad standing in it, because it was thick and hard to fit many things in. It was simple back then, and worked well, as we just said you couldnt fire through the woods, but could fire at any squad inside them. Now we argue visibility all the time. There are plenty more of these cases, whether skimmers can see over terrain. I sort of liked it when line of sight was abstract and good.

Ruins also perplexes me. There are so many tiny holes on ye olde gothic building. Sometimes there are just big chunks of walls. Do you have to put your unit in a window or a visable hole to be able to fire? How can you move straight through walls, but not fire through them? Any help to solve these confusions apriciated.

The Official GW Credo is:

TRUE LINE OF SIGHT! TRUE LINE OF SIGHT! IF HE CANT SEE IT HE CANT SHOOT! OBSCURED? IT GETS A 50% CHANCE OF NOT DYING! TRUE LINE OF SIGHT NO MATTER WHAT!!

To answer your First Q: If the LOS Is blocked by the model, it gets a cover save. Its not a case of just drawing LOS through the Unit anymore.

Terrain, both ruins and Woods, use how the actual terrain is modelled. There's a single tree in the way? Blocks LoS. That ruin wall intact? You cant shoot through it. You by a window? Yeah you can shoot Through it.

In reality, many players I know sort of "Fudge" it.

It's so wierd. I loved most rule changes in 5th edition, but have grown to hate True LOS. It creates more arguments than it's worth. It destroys families, turns brother against brother, father against son...!

I knew All along Alessio Cavatore was a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch!

But yeah, remember to bring only your crouching Firewarriors when at a tournament, but for friendly games just roll with whatever you agree on.

Though I do agree 5th ed got almost everything right. Perhaps when 6th Ed comes around they will finally nail it

Giant Moth wrote:It's so wierd. I loved most rule changes in 5th edition, but have grown to hate True LOS.

True LOS wasn't a 5th edition change. It's been the core of the LOS rules in every edition of the game so far. 4th edition simply temporarily added in abstract LOS for certain specific situations.


Edited for speelink.

insaniak wrote:

Giant Moth wrote:It's so wierd. I loved most rule changes in 5th edition, but have grown to hate True LOS.

True LOS wasn't a 5th edition change. It's been the core of the LOS rules in every edition of the game so far. 4th edition simply temporarily added in abstract LOS for certain specific situations.


Edited for speelink.

Yes that was the change that everyone hates though. It went from "TLoS with abstractions because were representing a fluid battlefield and not static models" to "TLoS cause Calgar is so awesome and some Tau never crouch down when shooting but those tau are always crawling across the floor when they move."

Gwar! wrote: It went from "TLoS with abstractions because were representing a fluid battlefield and not static models" to "TLoS cause Calgar is so awesome and some Tau never crouch down when shooting but those tau are always crawling across the floor when they move."

I'm not following... Unless your LOS involved area terrain or a close combat, those same things applied in 4th edition.

The fact that some players chose to play exclusively with area terrain doesn't change the way LOS was actually designed to work. It's not really a rules change if what changed was simply your own house rule...

Crouching FW's and house rules FTW...oh and don't forget tall skimmer stems

Someone claimed to me that model standing next to the walls of a ruin can always count as having LOS out of, because they are able to smash holes for their weapons and such of likewise effects. Is this true?

Isn't that a 4th edition/COD rule?

Anyway, the best thing you can do IMO is adapt your terrain to the new edition.
We ahve done it to our terrain and we have no problems at all. And I do mean, at all.

Ruins: Either completely board up any windows on the ground floor or open up all the windows.

Woods: Make sure any woods have a stationary "feature" in each corner (or equivilant). Any other trees can be movable. It is best if you make regular spots for each tree, either using magnets or an outline on the base.

Other than that, I find the new version of LOS quick and easy to use.

Giant Moth wrote:Someone claimed to me that model standing next to the walls of a ruin can always count as having LOS out of, because they are able to smash holes for their weapons and such of likewise effects. Is this true?

No. There is a section about moving through ruins, saying "some players like to play it so they can move through ruins like that" but per the rules, unless you house rule it, a model cannot draw LoS through a wall.

Gwar! wrote:To answer your First Q: If the LOS Is blocked by the model, it gets a cover save. Its not a case of just drawing LOS through the Unit anymore.

I believe you're mistaken here. There are some times that a unit is such a mass of bodies at such an angle that the firing unit may not see past the models in the unit... and in this case they may not draw LoS past it.

In the "intervening models" section of the cover rules, it even specifies that the intervening model grants a cover save if the target is "partially hidden."

My apologies, I guess I was unclear.

by "LoS is Blocked" I should have said obscured.

If the LOS is totally blocked by another model (i.e the model cannot see ANY of the target unit) then they cannot fire.

My main point there is that you have to check if the target is actually obscured by the intervening models, its not a simple case of "You drew LOS though this units bases, I get a Cover Save"

Except on the next page it does say that shooting between bases gives a cover save too.

Page 22, bullet point 3.

"... or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."

They really want you to have to f-up bad in order for one of your units not to have a cover save

it says "Gaps between models" not Gaps between bases. If you can draw LoS "over" a unit, the line of fire still can go through their bases, but because it isn't going "through" the gaps between the models, the enemy wont get a cover save.

Giant Moth wrote:It's so wierd. I loved most rule changes in 5th edition, but have grown to hate True LOS. It creates more arguments than it's worth. It destroys families, turns brother against brother, father against son...!

Quoted for truth. I saw a movie one time where Kevin Bacon got mad about this rule and went out to an abandoned warehouse to dance away his frustrations.

Me personally, I suggest that you just contradict your opponent regardless of what they say. He says he can see you, you say:

"No you can't."
"Yes, I can!"
"No you can't!
"I most certainly can!"
"You most certainly can not!"
"I can see the left side of your regiment right there!"
"Definitely not!"

The key to this method is to keep a straight face, a matter-of-fact tone, and absolutely no tolerance or wiggle room for his view or any supporting evidence. At the three minute mark, stop arguing and demand that he pay you if he wants to argue for another 5 minutes about it, then refuse to argue about whether or not he got his original 5 minutes worth of argument.

You can of course start packing your stuff if it doesn't look like he is going to pay up, or ask him to leave and start packing his stuff depending on where you are playing. Do whichever is least appropriate, as that will typically win friends, and may earn you a 5 spot if he decides he wants to argue about it some more.

Gotta love Monty Python.