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I have an issue with a common interpretation for “without number” tyranids entering the game 13+” from a synapse creature and not reverting to instinctual behavior. I believe the rules are definitely not clear on the issue and I disbelieve that they should be given a “free turn” that allows them ignore that rule on the turn they arrive.

Rules Lawyer Argument:
Premise 1. Units more than 12” away from a Synapse Creature at the beginning of their movement phase (not in combat or falling back) will revert to Instinctive Behavior. While affected by instinctive behavior a unit that wishes to move that turn for “any reason” must take a leadership test at the start of its movement phase.
Premise 2. Any brood without number that is removed from play may be brought back into play at the beginning of the next Tyranid turn from the Tyranid player’s board edge.

Conclusion: If the tyranid player tries to bring his WoN unit in from a point on the board edge that is greater than 12” from a Synapse Creature, he reverts to instinctive behavior. He should, therefore, take a Leadership test and if failed fall back toward the nearest synapse creature. If there are no synapse creatures on the board, I propose that that unit does not enter that turn but may try again next turn and no VPs are gained by the enemy.

I can find no rules in the book that address this situation. There is also no rule that restricts units that are “off the board” from taking a leadership test. Nevertheless, this does not seem to be the way it is commonly played. The most similar rule relates to the arrival of troops from reserve. In this case, troops that have rules that affect the possibility or direction of movement are ignored on the turn they arrive. However, it is wrong to simply pick out a part of the reserve rule as the foundation for the resolution of this issue. The reserve rule also includes a drawback (e.g the “Reserves Table) that cannot be separated from its other rules (such as arrival) and still be considered balanced. In other words, if you want to use the exception granted in the “Arrival from reserves” paragraph, then you would also have to be subjected to the Reserves Table. The randomness suggest by the Reserves tables is meant to represent different aspects of the troops that could cause it to arrive late such as poor planning, broken transport, bad directions, faulty alarm clock, or fear. It could be fitting to have this roll represent the instinctive behavior.

Summary:
1. I think that a WoN unit should have to take a Ld test to move on the board if outside 12” of a synapse creature because that is the nature of the Gaunts and there is no rule disallowing ld test for “off board” units.
OR
2. If the community believes that it is fairer to apply the Reserves interpretation, then the Reserves Table should not be ignored. In other words, they have to roll against the Reserves Table to move on the board in the same way a unit in reserves would roll for the given turn of the game. Afterwards they behave as normal.

Alright, roll your save against illusion, please. :rolld20:

There's absolutely no question that the guant squad arrives the next turn, whether or not one is arguing that they should enter play according to the reserves rules.

Doesn't the rest of your proposal fall into "Proposed Rules", though?

Edit: Just to elaborate, if the gaunts don't have the benefit of the "ignore any rule which would prevent you from moving onto the board" clausing for moving in from reserves, then the consequences appear to be as you partially describe:
Test for instinctive behavior if not moving in within 12" of synapse. If failed,
a) and there's no synapse on the board, fallback right off again. The rules would call for the squad to give up victory points.
b) if there is synapse on the board, do a fallback move from the board edge towards the synapse.

Putting the gaunts into reserve would be a house rule contradicting the part about the unit arriving the next turn. On the other hand, giving the gaunts protection from instinctive behavior would be a house rule as well.

Check Page 94, Arriving from reserves.

Basically, any special rule that would prevent you from entering the board from reserves is ignored on the turn that you enter (obvious things like Overcharged Engines for Blood Angels).

However, I think the lack of Synapse would also fall into that category. Hope that helps.

Now this is indeed a pickle.

Without Number's wording does suggest that it does in fact, not use the reserve rules (either for rolling, which you dont, or moving onto the board).

This is an example of what I like to call "GW dont give a gak" aka "Old Codex Syndrome".

The RaW can be interpreted both ways, so the solution is then to just clarify with your opponent before the game.

I agree with Gwar!

I would think that a unit that has not entered play yet would not need to make tests of this nature. Granted it's one of those things that the rules don't mention one way or another, but lets assume that there is one synapse creature within 12" of the board edge at the center of the board. How do you determine how far from that synapse creature the gaunts are if they're not even on the board yet? Do you say, "well they're moving on from the board edge, and the zoanthrope is 12" from the board edge... so they don't need to test." But then do they only get to move on from that exact point that the zoanthrope is 12" away from?

Even if there is a synapse creature right on the board edge... how do you determine if models that are completely off the table are "within 12 inches." There really is no way to do so. So, IMO follow the instruction in the tyranid codex that tell you to move the gaunts onto the table, as that is the clearest direction to take. Assume that this move onto the table, since it occurs at the "beginning of the turn" is like other "beginning of the turn" effects (such as the instinctual behavior) and the owning player gets to pick the order that it happens. Otherwise you're dealing with too many "assumptions" that aren't really covered by the rules.

Please note the wording of IB.

It does *not* read:
If a brood is less than 12" from synapse, it does not have to roll.

It *does* say:
If a brood is more than 12" from synapse, it does have to roll.

It is a very important distinction.

So, at the beginning of the turn, the first thing you do is determine if you need to roll for IB. So, any gaunt brood that measures more than 12" from synapse needs to roll.
What? You can't measure to gaunts that are off the board? Well then, it is impossible for you to determine that they are more than 12" away.

This is an example of what I like to call "GW dont give a gak" aka "Old Codex Syndrome".

I realize it is 'cool and hip' to just arbitrarily dis on GW. But at least have it make sense. Since this rule was around during 4E, and nothing has changed in regards to this rule in 5E, your claim it totally without merit.

Page 94 of the mini rule book states: If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction ( such as rage for example) or that could stop it from moving , the rule is ignored in the phase that it arrives from reserves.

Now if they do use the reserve rules (In that they arive that turn as if you rolled for them) Then regardless if they are not within synapse range of your ht They would act normally.

Also in my opinion if they had to pass a leader ship test and failed and they lurked that round. I would say they were removed from the game just like a unit that ran off the table edge.

I don't think a unit can be considered off the board and still be in the game in any way (with the exception of strafing fliers of course) as that is just ludicrous.

This reminds me of the other threads...

something about enemy using the other guy's teleporting homing device.

or criss cross cover saves between 2 units.

I consider it power gaming , and boo for the people with the audacity to abuse it.

coredump wrote:Please note the wording of IB.

It does *not* read:
If a brood is less than 12" from synapse, it does not have to roll.

It *does* say:
If a brood is more than 12" from synapse, it does have to roll.

It is a very important distinction.

So, at the beginning of the turn, the first thing you do is determine if you need to roll for IB. So, any gaunt brood that measures more than 12" from synapse needs to roll.
What? You can't measure to gaunts that are off the board? Well then, it is impossible for you to determine that they are more than 12" away.

This is an example of what I like to call "GW dont give a gak" aka "Old Codex Syndrome".

I realize it is 'cool and hip' to just arbitrarily dis on GW. But at least have it make sense. Since this rule was around during 4E, and nothing has changed in regards to this rule in 5E, your claim it totally without merit.

Thanks for making the point I was trying to make, only more concise, and with actual rules quotes

teflon_billy wrote:I can find no rules in the book that address this situation. There is also no rule that restricts units that are “off the board” from taking a leadership test. Nevertheless, this does not seem to be the way it is commonly played.

You're quite right in that there's nothing on this particular situation unless you consider the "without numbers" to be arriving from reserves. There's also nothing about how you'd actually measure to the off-board units to determine they're outside Synapse. And since we're being silly, what prevents the tyranid players from having an off-duty warrior squad standing in the middle of the critters waiting to resurrect? ;-)

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Bottle wrote:

My solution would be as follows: (although perhaps it is relying on pre-5th edition notions of there being a beginning of a turn before the Movement phase.)

The IB rules state that it is tested at the start of the movement phase, whilst the WoN states the gaunts are brought on the board "at the beginning of the next Tyranid turn." I would say this occurs before IB is tested for.

If you go by that method, wouldn't the Gaunts get to move on in that *pre-movement phase phase* and then move again in the Movement Phase?

It's just easier to use the only set of rules that involve units that aren't on the board yet. Otherwise, one has to make new rules involving a place that does not exist in game (the edge of the board).

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But they should never fall off the borad edge, unless they are brought in from reserve and all your synapse cretures are already dead......in that case you put them on the board edge and do your ld test if failed they fall off the board and are killed. with that said, if you have No synapse creatures they wouldn't come back....even if they have with-out number.....

now, if you had synapse creatures and you put them on the board, if you Pass or Fail the ld test they will still move forward towards the synapse creatures.....if you pass they act as normal and move forward, if you fail they move forward too, towards the synapse creature, providing they are up the board...

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Thank you for sharing your ideas, but I still have a few concerns I’d like to discuss. Based on some of the above suggestions/comments I have a couple of questions/re-attacks.

1. Why is rolling a leadership test for a unit that is not yet on the board “silly.” I’ll admit that it is unprecedented but it’s not all that different from rolling the reserve roll before troops arrive.

2. You obviously can’t measure to troops that are off the board, but you can measure to a point on the board edge from which a unit is about to enter. If this point is within 12” of a synapse creature than IB is ignored. Does that not seem logical?

3. My biggest concern for the forums: Why do some of you believe that it is appropriate to make a rules interpretation using only part of a rule? Specifically, some suggest that the “Arrives from Reserves” section on page 94 (that ignores movement rules) can be separated from the other parts of the reserve rule. There is a very real chance that the Reserves Rule can only maintain game balance when taken as a whole.

4. I agree with Solkan, in that I probably should have posted my original email in the “Proposed Rules” forum. How do you think the discussion would have been responded to differently there?

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How did you play this in 4e? This seems to be a conflict between 2 rules in the same CODEX. The codex was around before 5e, so why is this just becoming a problem now?

The problem is that in 4th edition, there was no case of a model ever being "off the board". Reserves back then wasn't a set rule either, each "mission" had its own description, and in any case you placed the model at the edge of the board and moved them from there, rather than moving them from "off the board" as it is now. The only way being off the board could happen was fall back (and it was destroyed automagicaly when it did), which is why the 4th edition Nid codex doesn't make any mention of it.

In 5th they tried to avoid the issue by standardising the reserve rules and by stating stating "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction (such as 'rage', for example) or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives from Reserve."

I don't see why that's unclear actually now I have a second look. The Rule says "If a unit has a special rule ... that could stop it from moving."
IB is a special rule that could stop them from moving (via Lurk). It doesn't matter that the Lurk is a Voluntary action, its still part of the rule that could stop them moving (IB) so therefore the entire rule is Ignored.

Except W/O number isn't reserves. We've established that. The problem is, the only way to handle this is to A) use the only rules that deal with units coming in from off the board, or B) making new, unprecedented rules that allow for morale checks by units that do not exist. In my opinion it is clear which option is better, but anyone that just recently got defeated by the 'nids will of course think exploring new areas is the superior choice.

Bottle,
I’d like to address your comments a little further because I don’t think we understand each other.

My proposal does not ask that any of the IB rules be separated, discounted or ignored. In fact, I’m trying to ensure that they are not ignored at all (which common interpretations are doing).

1. The gaunts will always be moving on the board when there is a synapse creature somewhere on the board. It will either move on the board from a point 12” from a synapse creature (and act normally), pass a ld test (and act normally), or fall back toward the synapse creature at 2D6”.
2. If a synapse creature is not on the board, the choice (players “may” or may not choose to use WoN according to rule) to bring back the gaunts becomes more risky. If they attempt to risk it and fail, then VPs are awarded.
3. Lurking can still be an option. If you have no synapse creatures on the board and you want to save the gaunt unit for one last gambit grab for a back edge objective, you could choose to lurk your guants off board until the turn you want them to attempt to arrive. This would prevent them from “dieing” on intermediate turns where you might have a failed Ld test (and VPs are an issue). Lurking off board is not as unprecedented as it seems to anyone who still owns a game of Space Hulk (great game!).

Just so everyone knows. This is not a big issue with my gaming group, nor do I see it as one with the WH40k community as a whole. It’s just one of those rules that is not automatically clear. The Tyranid codex has two rules (IB & WoN) that combine to form a situation that is not addressed by the rule book. I disagree that the reserves rule is applicable and seek to find an interpretation that satisfies the intended capabilities and restrictions called for by both the IB and WoN rules.

Wait a sec, you think that the most logical way to handle this is to make a whole new set of rules based on Space Hulk? If you're gonna let them Lurk off the board, why can't I have a Hive Tyrant standing off board with them? If Gaunts can perform actions off the board, why can't other units? Can I leave a unit of Warriors in reserve and have them provide synapse to my lurking Gaunts?

There is no RaW way to answer this, this thread may as well be locked or moved to Proposed Rules.

A) Units off the board, are not in the game yet. Applying rules to them (let alone letting them take actions) does not work.

B) Since there is no way to measure to the unit, there is no way to determine if the unit is more than 12" away.

Most of the 'solutions' involve making up some random rule, that has no basis in the book.

The problem is that in 4th edition, there was no case of a model ever being "off the board". Reserves back then wasn't a set rule either, each "mission" had its own description, and in any case you placed the model at the edge of the board and moved them from there, rather than moving them from "off the board" as it is now. The only way being off the board could happen was fall back (and it was destroyed automagicaly when it did), which is why the 4th edition Nid codex doesn't make any mention of i

Most of this is simply not true.

coredump wrote:A) Units off the board, are not in the game yet. Applying rules to them (let alone letting them take actions) does not work.

B) Since there is no way to measure to the unit, there is no way to determine if the unit is more than 12" away.

I agree with this. While it never says those units are in Reserve, if they are availble to you and not currently deployed, that would seem to imply they are Reserves.

I know "implying" with GW rules is like shooting fish with a squirt gun, but hey, it's the best we can do.