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If a vehicle has the Scouting USR and and has the ability to transport figures, like the Valkyries and Vendettas, starts the game with a unit with out the Scouting USR loaded into it does it lose Scouting? Could it still outflank if I put into reserve??

It can Outflank if the unit inside it can also Outflank. Otherwise, yes, it loses the Outflank ability.

don_mondo wrote:It can Outflank if the unit inside it can also Outflank. Otherwise, yes, it loses the Outflank ability.

Can you explain this? A unit with the ability to outflank may only confer the ability to outflank on a dedicated transport but I can't see any rule that says a transport which already has outflank on it's own could not outflank with units without the special deployment rules inside it.

Regarding a normal scout move I also see no reason that the vehicle with scout could not execute it's scout move with non scout infantry inside it.

If a transport (dedicated or no) can outflank, then the unit inside is dragged along with it regardless if the unit can or not.

Its the way Khans rule about Dedicated Transports outflanking works

The Khan gives "all units" the Outflank ability, so that's not a good example.

Nowhere does it say that a non-dedicated transport can Outflank with a unit inside that doesn't have the Outflank ability. Just like Infiltrators not "dragging along" their Dedicated Transport to the front lines.

Way I see it, vultures have outflank and therefore they can outflank. Why would the passengers be getting an opinon?

Its the way Khans rule about Dedicated Transports outflanking works

Not really no, Khan gives the unit outflank and that means they can do it in their dedicated transport no matter what rules the transports might or might not have on the matter (the transport itself never gains outflank from Khan because it has no combat tactics to trade in).
So thats pretty much an example that has nothing at all to do with the point at hand.

Drunkspleen wrote:

don_mondo wrote:It can Outflank if the unit inside it can also Outflank. Otherwise, yes, it loses the Outflank ability.

Can you explain this? A unit with the ability to outflank may only confer the ability to outflank on a dedicated transport but I can't see any rule that says a transport which already has outflank on it's own could not outflank with units without the special deployment rules inside it.

Regarding a normal scout move I also see no reason that the vehicle with scout could not execute it's scout move with non scout infantry inside it.

Simple. It specifically states that a unit which can outflnak confers that ability to it's dedicated transport. Now, show me a statement that says a transport can confer Outflank to a transported unit. If there ain't no such statement, it doesn't happen. So the reason would be, it doesn't say you can.

don_mondo wrote:Simple. It specifically states that a unit which can outflnak confers that ability to it's dedicated transport. Now, show me a statement that says a transport can confer Outflank to a transported unit. If there ain't no such statement, it doesn't happen. So the reason would be, it doesn't say you can.

It doesn't need to because they aren't outflanking, they are just coming in from reserves riding in the vehicle, only the vehicle is outflanking.

I'd be interested to see your take on the other half of the question too, could the vehicle start on the board and make a scout move after deployment if the unit in it aren't scouts?

Drunkspleen wrote:It doesn't need to because they aren't outflanking, they are just coming in from reserves riding in the vehicle, only the vehicle is outflanking.

I'd be interested to see your take on the other half of the question to, could the vehicle start on the board and make a scout move after deployment if the unit in it aren't scouts?

Yes, because the unit inside are not moving, the transport is, so the unit do not need the scout rule. They would be unable to disembark in the Scout Move however because they cannot move in the Scout move, only the vehicle can.

P.s. I made a mistake about Khans ability Earlier, my bad. Still doesnt change the fact that if the transport can outflank, the unit inside it goes with it regardless.

Drunkspleen wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Simple. It specifically states that a unit which can outflnak confers that ability to it's dedicated transport. Now, show me a statement that says a transport can confer Outflank to a transported unit. If there ain't no such statement, it doesn't happen. So the reason would be, it doesn't say you can.

It doesn't need to because they aren't outflanking, they are just coming in from reserves riding in the vehicle, only the vehicle is outflanking.

Yes, just like people saying that Drop Pods were Deepstriking, not the squad inside...so you could assault out of one. We know how that went...

I'd be interested to see your take on the other half of the question too, could the vehicle start on the board and make a scout move after deployment if the unit in it aren't scouts?

They cannot be held in Reserve and Deployed via Outflank without the rule to do so. If already on the board inside the vehicle I would say they could. I'm sure the codex will have some reference to this situation, since it's the first time something like this has come up.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I'm sure the codex will have some reference to this situation, since it's the first time something like this has come up.

Now what has 40K taught you about hope?

Neconilis wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I'm sure the codex will have some reference to this situation, since it's the first time something like this has come up.

Now what has 40K taught you about hope?

There is none. Suck it

After reading through this thread, my Unshakable faith in... my view on it (not the Emperor, He protects the Faithful) has been shaken.
I'm starting to think we will need an official Errata on this one lads. (No, an offical FAQ isnt good enough)





(No, John Spencer doesn't count either - Just Pre-empting it there)

The frakking Codex isn't even out yet.....sheesh!

Believe me, I would be very glad if it were possible. My primary army is IG. I wouldn't have to worry about how I'm going to get the Outflank ability for the passengers that I want to drop off somewhere along the 24" path when the Valk/Vend shows up.

Does it not make it kind of useless for a transport to be able to outflank but carry a unit?

While I know that doesn't have any bearing on the rules, it still seems kind of a major oversight, even for GW (and these are the guys who failed to pick up on Dual Lash Mayhem in months of playtesting).

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Yes, just like people saying that Drop Pods were Deepstriking, not the squad inside...so you could assault out of one. We know how that went...

The difference here of course being that the rules refer to a unit disembarking from a deepstriking transport as a deepstriking unit, but I do see your point, I just disagree with it.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:The frakking Codex isn't even out yet.....sheesh!

I was just trying to be amusing, hopefully someone somewhere snickered at least. But yeah, RAW this issue really isn't covered and it would be nice to see it addressed sometime soon, or actually within the new IG codex, though honestly I really doubt that one.

What?

You mean you actually want GW to clarify something in a codex w/o making us wait a year for a FAQ to clarify it? Is that even legal?

Madness, I say, madness!

Alerian wrote:What?

You mean you actually want GW to clarify something in a codex w/o making us wait a year for a FAQ to clarify it? Is that even legal?

Madness, I say, madness!

Well, they still havent given us a Daemons FAQ. And um... Refuse to... Update Old Codex's because they are greedy gaks.

So.. ya its not legal... I guess.

Valkyries and V3endettas get the ability to outflank or have the scout rule?

They're going to have the scout rule. Personally, I'm a lot more scared of scouting skimmers that start on the table than outflanking skimmers.

Hollismason wrote:Valkyries and V3endettas get the ability to outflank or have the scout rule?

They are meant to (so many people have said so it seems all but guaranteed at this point) have scout, I think they might even be able to deploy non scouts during the scout move because of thier special deepstrike disembarks.

A bit OT from the OP but...

If a dedicated transport comes with a unit with the infiltrate USR (Or scouts) then that vehicle can outflank.. Can it outflank if it has IC in the vehicle with them?

If that IC prohibits the ability to infiltrate with the unit, does that also mean that the IC cannot outflank with that unit? Or as it is a different manourver.. is it allowes?

Thanks

Razerous wrote:A bit OT from the OP but...

If a dedicated transport comes with a unit with the infiltrate USR (Or scouts) then that vehicle can outflank.. Can it outflank if it has IC in the vehicle with them?

If that IC prohibits the ability to infiltrate with the unit, does that also mean that the IC cannot outflank with that unit? Or as it is a different manourver.. is it allowes?

Thanks

Back to the original question, it is silly to argue/discuss because we have no idea how the rule is written in the codex.

As for this particular question, no an IC would not gain an ability simply by joining the unit, especially since Scout is an asterisked USR which means the unit loses it when joined by an IC.

But if you want to look at the broader question (and assume that the IG codex will give Valkyrie 'Scout' and not have a proviso about the units inside), no a unit embarked on a transport would not gain the Scout ability because there is nothing in the rules that says they do.

While it would be legal for the transport to arrive via outflank it would not be for the unit inside, so it isn't that the Valkyrie would be 'losing' Scout, it would just be that the unit arriving inside of it via outflanking as well would be breaking the rules and is therefore not allowed. But again, this is all completely pointless until the actual rules text is seen.

If you take the theory that a transport can't do anything that the passengers can't. Then what about Deep Strike?

"Sorry, your Drop Pods can't actually deep strike, because the Marines in it don't have deep strike themselves?"

I'm not buying it. Transports can do all sorts of things their passengers can't do. Travel at more than infantry speed, fly over terrain, fire heavy weapons on the move and so on. Why pick up on one ability now and announce that the inablity of it's passengers to do it stops it being used? It seems a very inconsistent approach to the rules.

Hymirl wrote:If you take the theory that a transport can't do anything that the passengers can't. Then what about Deep Strike?

"Sorry, your Drop Pods can't actually deep strike, because the Marines in it don't have deep strike themselves?"

I'm not buying it. Transports can do all sorts of things their passengers can't do. Travel at more than infantry speed, fly over terrain, fire heavy weapons on the move and so on. Why pick up on one ability now and announce that the inablity of it's passengers to do it stops it being used? It seems a very inconsistent approach to the rules.

^^ that was my point. The marines count as deep striking, but they dont actually deep strike themselves, same as a unit in an outflanking transport count as outflanking, but don't outflank themselves.

I'm not buying it. Transports can do all sorts of things their passengers can't do. Travel at more than infantry speed, fly over terrain, fire heavy weapons on the move and so on. Why pick up on one ability now and announce that the inablity of it's passengers to do it stops it being used?

Because all of your cited examples are detailed in the rules as an ability of a vehicle/transport? And the "one" ability we are talking about isn't?

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Because all of your cited examples are detailed in the rules as an ability of a vehicle/transport? And the "one" ability we are talking about isn't?

But Scout is listed in the Valkerie's abilties, thats my point.