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Well I'm finally ready to jump into warhammer fantasy and know nothing about it. Were I live it's all 40k.

So,as it stands,what are the top tier armies. By this I mean competitive.

I play Eldar and Tau in 40k,so you guys know what kind of player I am and I really am leaning towards Wood Elves.

I know nothing about them,so if you think that they would be a good force to start with please explain why. Of course in comparison to the other options.

Thanks

The Top Tier lists in WHFB are:

1. Chaos Daemons
2. More Chaos Daemons
3. Vampire Counts
4. More Vampire Counts
5. Dark Elves

If you are planning to start a Wood Elves army, be prepared to build the double Treeman army if you want to be anything near competitive. WHFB is much less balanced than 40k is currently. You need to play either Chaos Daemons, Vampire Counts or Dark Elves to stand a chance at the major tournaments.

Ive always thought it goes something more like this

Choas Daemons
Dark Elves
Vampire Counts

All three rock out hard in the magic phase!! Also the new mortals arent halve bad either.

Any of the new armies starting with vampire counts are good.

I'd actually say Empire. The detachment system alone if used properly can win games.

Static resolution isn't what it used to be. This makes Empire not as strong. Empire doesn't really have any fear causing, or hard hitting units like CD DE or VC. Combined with average to bad leadership, means the army falls apart easier than you would think. Gun line can work, and steam tank spam can work. Other than these two options, one of whom isn't that great (gunline) they have the all mounted army (which is a one trick pony, and brets do it better). Its not too hard for DE to out shoot Empire either. Nothing wrong with empire, but being average at everything gets you nowhere.

For the original poster:

Since you like tau and eldar, Dark elves are probably the army for you. They have superb hit and run units, better shooting than any other elf army, and their specialized combat units are quite under priced for being some of the best CC units in the game. The Dark Elf magic phase can be brutal for how many points you spend on it. Power of darkness makes the wizards more dangerous, and the dagger makes a lvl 4 wizard just stupid powerful. The lores they can choose from are some of the more potent ones (offensive lores). DE armor and toughness means that you have to be careful how you run them. But from your background you should be used to that. They take a bit more finesse than the other top 3 armies, and you have to play your best game to beat daemons. But vs armies outside of the top 3, its almost hard to lose with them.

How about lizardmen? they are the latest GW Fantasy line.

which usually have some benefits to attract customers.

Lizard men are good. Tough blocks of troops with nice magic and powerful monsters. They have decent leadership, and since they are cold blooded, are very hard to break. You aren't going to really trick or out move an enemy, but these guys are good enough not to care most of the time. The skinks are good throw away units, and are very useful for their points.

The book itself is very balanced, which is the only thing keeping it out of the T3. (meaning the Top 3 are a bit unbalanced). It is for sure a competitive army.

Warriors of Chaos are a prime choice for a close combat force. Their basic Warriors have Strength and Toughness 4, WS 5, and Initiative 5. They're the closest you'd get to Space Marines (hurr).

Pure Gobbos!

Lizardmen StegoRush I see as being another "Top Tier" army soon. Hard to take out that many T6 wounds.

Thanks for the info so far.

Is WHFB really that unbalanced?

Anymore thoughts on Wood Elves? Or are they really that low on the totem pole?

WHFB wasn't that unbalanced until the daemon book. VC was top army before that, but to be honest it isn't as great as people make it out to be: it was a flavor of the month army. But since its one of the few armies that can beat daemons, its kept its popularity. DE are similar, but also beat most non VC/daemons with regularity. This combination keeps the majority of armies from competing at a high level. Take daemons out of the equation, and the game would have a much larger diversity. Don't me wrong, some of the crap armies would never win anything: look at beastmen and ogres... but you would see a much larger sampling of the game at events if daemons were gone.

As for wood elves: No armor, individual models are expensive as most elves are, and their shooting isn't as great as you would think. Forest spirits are pretty much crappy daemons, and their lore sucks pretty bad. The synergy of their army as a whole is very good, but its very hard to play them right. They have a weakness vs magic, and tree singing isn't as good as you would hope. Their Tree men are pretty nice, but most tourney player know how to handle them from back when wood elves did well for a year. I personally like their fast cav, but vs counter shooting they go away pretty quickly. In combat they lack the numbers/ranks to win with static resolution, and they aren't as good in combat as the units that people actually run at events. (they are good vs normal guys in combat, but who runs those?). They are not a crap army, but they are not a top army at the moment. Almost everything the wood elves do well, DE do better, and DE have units that can win in combat.

Jin wrote:Lizardmen StegoRush I see as being another "Top Tier" army soon. Hard to take out that many T6 wounds.

Im working on a list of 4 engines of god doing Burning Alignment when the saurus and temple guards units locks
the enemy in place. the 4 skink priest will cast comet of cassandra till they get into HtH combat, and then cast the
reroll misses on the 24 st are 4 attacks per unit o_o ( unless i interpret the rules wrong on spear saurus )

I play against an all mounted and shooty army. They are very hard to play against. Unit size is five or less therefore most magic is a waste on them. They shoot 24 and do not pay a penality for moving and shooting. This is a frustrating army to play against. I have been slaughtered twice, lost to a minor victory and last time was able to achieve a draw.

I have to agree with the three top armies although I have been able defeat all three but I did not make any mistakes and had some little luck with the die roll. Actually I know the vamps are frustrating to play as they keep raising what ever you have been able to kill. If you can get a jump on them, kill more than they raise, you are going a long ways. Daemons with Bloodthirster and jaggernauts are a little over the top if they take both of these. You can win but I have lost more than I have won against them. And the flamers are hard to deal with, with the rest of the army.

Dark elves have the problem that faces all elves, str and toughest 3. Well mostly anyways. Their crossbows, double firing are awesome, RBTs are just great and their magic is nothing to laugh at.

But it is my understanding that the winner of last year was the HE. I could be wrong about that. It will not be the first time and probably not the last either.

Winner of what event(s)? the meta has changed hugely in the last year. Daemons are dominating, and DE/VC round out the top played and placing armies.

The problem you say faces all elves isn't really a problem. Units that have s3 shoot. Units that are meant for combat don't have S3. They have weapons that change S, have natural S4, or are crappy spear men that you take for static resolution. T3 is pretty normal in warhammer, so is a non issue. Crappy armor IS an issue though, but long charge ranges, good WS, and high initiative help.

Wood Elves are a solid army, they're just not as good as VC and Daemons (though I can't seem to beat them with my VC...). Last edition, I'd say they were the strongest army out there and certainly are very frustrating to play against.

If you are looking to win grand tournaments, DE is probably a better choice. If you're looking to compete well in local tournaments and games, WE are plenty strong for that.

Yeah, it depends what you are looking for. For fun games WEs are just fine. But the tournament level has really gotten skewed by DoC and the top tiers are dominated by DoC and things that can beat DoC- VC and DEs. WAltar+Stank Empire is pretty "meh" by comparison- which is saying something! I guess you could go the Annoyance Ancient + Treeman route w/WEs, but it's not what it used to be (they moved the cheese :-)).

Cheese Elemental: WoC is not a good army. It can field magic spam to hope for lucky rolls, a dragon, or all cav. Otherwise you have a bunch of slow M4 stuff that gets flanked, march blocked, or dies.

I play for fun,but if their is no hope of winning against the top armies,luck aside, then whats the point.

When I bought my Tau army I purchased 3000 pts in one go. Only to find out that they got completely nerfed in 5th edition. I still have fun with them,because I can win if I try really hard. If I can't at lest do that with WEs then it's a no go for them.

I don't think that's the case. It will be a challenge to beat DoC but it's not impossible. I think they have an even better chance vs. VC and DE.

Thanks,I was getting discouraged and thinking of dropping the idea of WHFB altogether.

Disorder armies are out,as far as options go,for me.

Wood elves are fine, they just have a hard time vs daemons, and can be out shot/magiced by DE. VS most everything else, they do very well. Once you get good with them, you can and should beat the average player more than half the time. But once you get to big events, you won't be facing the average player, you will be facing good players with the biggest cheese pile they or the internet thought up. Wood elves used to be able to compete in the cheese category, but new books came out that trump what they have. If you get good with them, it will be at least as rewarding as getting good with your tau.* Winning against imposing odds is part of what makes the game fun, and is the reason why I like playing ogres even though I know that army is hopeless. (even ogres can beat the top armies if you are really really good, and your opponent is unlucky)







*Which by the way aren't as bad in 5th as you would think. Trying to run them like its still 4th edition is why so many people don't do well with them. I would say they are still a top 5 army in 40k, if built/run right.

I think you should go for wood elves simply because you like them. you shouldn´t choose an army because it is the most powerful. times will change and they will no longer be the power army.

in regards to wood elves i play them myself. i saw previous posters make silly comments like low toughness, no armour etc as arguments against them. they are a finesse army and should be played as one. don´t make silly charges and take stupid risks as you don´t have a backup unit to do it again (e.g. skaven can)

here´s some pro´s and cons

pro - shooting is reliable. yes it is not overly powerful but very reliable at doing what you want it to. I personally use it to simply get rid of rank bonus´ or small flanking units. Fastest army in the game. you can out maneuver pretty much every opponent. This is due to your access to good fast cav, lots of skirmishers and being able to move through woods without penalties. you also don´t give up many VP from captured standards as you generally don´t have any/many. you can pick and choose the fights you want due to the high movement. you are also very resilient to fear as much of your army causes it or is immune to psychology

con´s - you will have low numbers and toughness. however compared to your the other elven kin you are quite tough with the forest spirits. ward saves get negated by magic and being immune to psychology for the most part can also be a hinderance if you don´t work with it (as you can not flee as a charge reaction)


one note on how to play. don´t do a dedicated forest spirit or elf army. i think you loose too many options to be competitive

on another note they were top of the tables a few years ago like daemons are now. i would put this down to the fact that they dominated one phase of the game like daemons do now and people were not able to work out how to combat that.

Wood Elves dominated the movement which in turn meant they dominated the combat due to them being able to pick the fights where they wanted.

Daemons dominate the magic which is why they win from what i understand.

something will come along/someone will work out how to get around/destroy the daemon magic phase which will knock them off. I´m of the opinion skaven could do it and i think a revamp is on the way for them. they may not be able to destroy the daemon magic phase but they can get around it. that would be simply by having too many troops to deal with by any reasonable means. plus they have deadly magic of their own (plauge anyone) and powerful shooting (ratling guns).

WE are a good army choice but as stated above since the newer books have come out they struggle. Dyrads and wardancers bounce off sarus warriors and pay very dearly for bad rolls. Magic is a major obstical but can be overcome with descent defense. WE still pretty much dominate the shooting phase, the ability to move and shoot without penalty is huge because you dont need your archer lines to be static. Any army can beat any army on any given day if kitted out for specifics in mind. I also play DE and a great many people are trying to figure out how to beat my assassin/magic combo lists. Ive won 4 times as many games as ive lost and most of the games i lost was when i was first learning how to play the army. DE can be beat proved that the other day with my WE didnt bother taking any treemen and went with the gatling gun/magic defense list with some cav and wayatchers. It went very well because i already knew what to expect from my oppenant, seeing that this guys list looked like something id put together.

Well it looks like WEs are my kind of army. They are fast,like Eldar,few in numbers,like Eldar,good at shooting like Tau.

I was just trying to figure out if starting WHFB with WEs would be worth the time and money.

Now the question I hate to ask,but have to know. Is WHFB as fun of a game as 40k?

I realize that most things in life are apples and oranges,but there could be a reason that 40k sells better than WHFB. I know 40k is big guns and tanks,but I see past those kind of things. Just making sure that WHFB isn't lame.

They are abit harder to convert i guess is the reason why its less popular. Harder to kit bash and have it look natural after. They depend on GS alot more, less plasti cards etc etc.

WHFB has a more complex rules system, and the fluff isn't as interesting. 40k has a streamlined rules set, and a great setting with well written fluff.

In terms of game play WHFB has more importance placed on deployment and how units work together. Games can be won or lost in the deployment part of the game. The magic system is MUCH more powerful than the 40k powers. But shooting is much weaker. Since most units need to get to CC to do anything, the movement phase is much more critical than 40k. In fact the movement phase is the biggest barrier for people to play at a decent level. Once you master how things can move, and how to get the most out of your units working together, you get to play the "real" game.

40k on the other hand has a simple movement phase, shooting is king, and CC is for specialists. The barrier to play the real part of the game is much lower. Since even the worst armies can still beat the best armies, 40k has a better balance between forces.

Personally I enjoy WHFB more. What drew me in was having an actual battle line that wasn't just a gun line. Which is ironic because my main force is DE whom don't really go for the whole battle line thing. It sure is fun trying to break them though!

WFB is not lame but it is balance challenged.

40K is more fun.

Tomb Kings are good, My first army