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Right now, with half the shots and the same strength and range as a scatter laser, Starcannons are just not worth the price premium that you pay for them, especially considering that in most situations their primary targets (SV2 or 3 infantry models) are going to be benefiting from some sort of cover save or invulnerable save. In most situations a different weapon from the Eldar armory is going to be more effective at any given task.

So, what I've heard a few times is either, bump it back up to 3 shots, or make it cheaper. My problem with the first idea is that then it just creates redundancies wtih scatter lasers. It will simply make a different weapon less desirable, rather than making all weapons useful in some role. My problem with simply making them cheaper is that no matter how cheap you make them... they still won't be good in most situations with only two shots each. For example, even if a starcannon was as cheap as a shuriken cannon on most platforms... the extra shot makes the shuriken cannon better at light-vehicle busting, better against poor-saving-throw hordes, and just about the same against MEQ in cover.

So, in order to give the starcannon a unique niche in the Eldar codex, I suggest the following profile in place of its current one:

R24" (it is a plasma weapon after all) St 7 AP 1 Heavy 2

It would make it a premier light-vehicle and monstrous-creature hunting weapon, and give it a unique role in the book. It would make it so generals actually have a choice between scatter-laser and EML utility.

Or give it a small blast effect?

With the way blast weapons work now, any army with a less-than-stellar BS suddenly is all KINDS of nasty. That, and someone (possibly you, can't recall) mentioned getting a heavy weapon platform per 10 models in a Defender Squad.

I get all silly at those two ideas combined.

A blast might work... but I think that EML plasma missiles and prism cannons already fill that role. I didn't think of one platform/10 guardians, but that wouldn't be bad. Hell, at the current price of guardians and platforms, 2 platforms/10 guardians would make them competitive with imperial troops.

The Prism Cannon grav tanks are pretty nasty, as are EML plasma, but the EML doesn't have a lot of Str to it, and the tanks can be shot down without unreasonable difficulty.

Eldar infantry lack a certain... something when it comes to bringing some fire power at range aside from Aspect Warriors (and even then, it's mostly Dark Reapers). A small mechanized Defender unit is still relatively weak apart from it's transport, but those big mobs trudging around throwing down templates while they maneuver has some merit.

And the 'new' starcannon wouldn't pin or anything like that and retain it's MEQ killer status, giving the EML more versatility against regular infantry and light-medium vehicles.

I guess I'm loathe to see yet another plasma-cannon variant Alternatively, the starcannon could have the exact same profile as the DE plasma-cannon-thing-that-I-can't-remember-the-name-of...

Dual fire modes, str 7 ap 2 blast

or

str 4 ap 3 heavy 3

The alternative is to just junk the thing and make Scatter Lasers Rending or some fool thing.

The Starcannon is definately a shadow of its former glory.

Not to push my own recent (and reasonably unsucessful) thread but I think it is worth pointing out Starcannons ignore FNP. So here is the list.

Space Marines
Honour Guard
Terminators
Anything in the open, say from a Drop Pod

Blood Angels
Death Company

Dark Angels
Bikes (all SM, really)

Tyranids
TMC

Necrons
Destroyers
All 'Crons, if FNP is put in place.

CSM
Plague Marines
Anything in the open

Orks
FNP Nobz
MANZ

What I am trying to say -- what Starcannons DO do, they give you an edge against elite units in almost any army list you will face, even if they are not as well suited for flushing your bog standard Tac squad out of 4+/3+ cover. Scatterlasers, on the other hand do not really do anything other than provide some basic shooting. And kill Kans.

It would be cool if they were S7 but they never have been, so ....

Traditionally when a Plasma weapon is not Gets Hot! it is only S6. Yes, even for Eldar.

I like the idea of making it the same as the Dark Eldar Destructor. The ability would make it a viable multi-shot weapon that can fire as a defensive weapon on a Falcon.
May even breathe life back into Falcons if they could potentially pump out 5 shots of AP2/3 per turn.

DAaddict wrote:I like the idea of making it the same as the Dark Eldar Destructor. The ability would make it a viable multi-shot weapon that can fire as a defensive weapon on a Falcon.
May even breathe life back into Falcons if they could potentially pump out 5 shots of AP2/3 per turn.

THAT'S what it's called. Destructor. There we go!

most my opponents are tau/tyranid/chaos i have completely removed all the starcannons from my army

scatter lasers are just plain better for cost

willydstyle wrote:I guess I'm loathe to see yet another plasma-cannon variant Alternatively, the starcannon could have the exact same profile as the DE plasma-cannon-thing-that-I-can't-remember-the-name-of...

Dual fire modes, str 7 ap 2 blast

or

str 4 ap 3 heavy 3

Disintegrator?

I disagree on Starcannons with Heavy 3 taking the spot of other weaponry though. In the 3rd Edition codex, the Starcannons were simply underpriced compared to the other options. They now cost significantly more. Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers are still superior to the Starcannon (pointswise) when shooting at Geq's or Vehicles, even if you increase the Starcannons to Heavy 3. Starcannons should be the weapon of choice for destroying heavy-infantry, which it is not at the moment. The only way to solve this is to make it kill heavy-infantry more efficiently (as in increase the firepower or decrease the points cost).

What you are suggesting here is making the Starcannon a more versatile weapon (thereby changing it's role in the Eldar army entirely), which in my mind should never be done to the Eldar. I already dislike the Eldar Missile Launcher for it's versatile approach. Eldar are about using specialized units for every task. The weaponry should reflect this.

Starcannon need to remain S6 in tendem with Tau plasma because S7 plasma causes Gets Hot!

I would be happy with heavy 3 and a range dip to 24". Now its an expensive armour peircing shuriken cannon but with the price differences there is a reason to take both.

Even without the fix there is still room for starcannon in Eldar armies, termie killing for a start, especially as Reaper launchers are not up to the job. Also Eldar do not lack for movbile heavy weapons which can manoeuver to deny cover saves a lot of the time.
Starcanhnon are really only obsolete for Guardian Defenders because of relative immobility and War Walkers due to accumulative price. They never belong on Wraithlords to begin with as BS4 deserved the single shot gun, but they do well on Vypers, Wave Serpents and Falcons.

Heavy 3 24" sounds like an OK idea. Shuriken Cannon, Starcannon, Assault Cannon. 24" range. eh? eh?.

Tacobake wrote:Heavy 3 24" sounds like an OK idea. Shuriken Cannon, Starcannon, Assault Cannon. 24" range. eh? eh?.

I don't like that idea because it simply makes another weapon (the shuriken cannon) obsolete. It should have its own role in the codex.

The Shuriken Cannon is a worthwhile weapon because it is the cheapest and equally useful against AV10/ AV11. And because it looks cool.

Nope, assuming starcannon at 24" Hvy3 people will just take scatter lasers if they want light vehicle busting, and starcannons for 24" killing. No good listmaker will take shuriken cannon unless the starcannon is horrendously overpriced, because AP 2 gives too many benefits for the same number of shots. Redundant weapon options are bad rules writing.

IMO Starcannon actually increases price again (to around that of Bright Lance) same range same stats except, ignores cover.

Makes fluffy sense that the plasma balls shot out will just melt through anything, leaves open all the other weapons for their rolls and makes sure the SC still has its MEQ killer roll in the army. And adds a weapon that will preform well in the Cover Save millennium we live in. Eldar don't have much (if anything) to deal with cover entrenched troops (except for obviously the other MEQ killer Howling Banshees, but I hardly think SC would replace HB lol).

ihatehumans wrote:IMO Starcannon actually increases price again (to around that of Bright Lance) same range same stats except, ignores cover.

Makes fluffy sense that the plasma balls shot out will just melt through anything, leaves open all the other weapons for their rolls and makes sure the SC still has its MEQ killer roll in the army. And adds a weapon that will preform well in the Cover Save millennium we live in. Eldar don't have much (if anything) to deal with cover entrenched troops (except for obviously the other MEQ killer Howling Banshees, but I hardly think SC would replace HB lol).

That's interesting. I like it.

Keep it as is, just give it..

Heavy 2, Blast and raise the points slightly to compensate, Eldar shouldn't have a plasma weapons inferior to what humans are using, it's so.... not-eldar.

Heavy 2 blast is not something you want to be able to have as easily as other weapons, especially when its ap2 s6!!!

It's not a matter of the Starcannon being not as good as humans, it's less bulky and more stable. You proposal is along the lines of making Eldar grav tanks armor 13 or 14 because they should be better than what humans are using. The idea of the starcannon is it fires small bursts of plasma in rapid succession as compared to one large ball, making it less likely to overheat and more efficient at firing at single targets. Heavy 3 is too strong, and Heavy 2 is too weak, making it AP 1 or higher str makes it a tank killer which puts it out of place. I think it needs to be Heavy 2 with a bonus or Heavy 3 with an offset (maybe make it range 24" for example, but once again it will be competing with the shuriken cannon, other better ideas welcome) to make sure it fits in with both its role and its fluff!

No, my proposal is like what I proposed... not what you made up. Eldar do not use massive armor plated vehicles, they strike swiftly and powerfully.

Most other plasma weapons use blast, the Eldar one is slightly weaker but is reliable. No plasma is AP 1 and it shouldn't be. To make it actually have a role would be to make it a high strength small blast, which there aren't any of. This would also make it compare to other plasma weapons throughout 40K. That would fill out it's role as a heavy infantry killer without taking away from other roles. Making it Heavy 3 will make the Scatter Laser obsolete. Making it higher strength would contradict with the EML. Also the benefits of 7 strength aren't that great anyway. Just my 2c.

We seem to have two viable proposals, either of which would give the starcannon a role again.


1) Leave the cost pretty much the same, make it a 2 shot str6 ap2 plasma weapon that ignores cover saves.

2) Increase the cost a bit, make it a 2 shot str6 ap2 blast plasma weapon.

Either would give the starcannon at least a bit of a role in most eldar armies, and since the eldar are *supposed* to be far beyond anyone else in plasma tech then either also makes sense.



Sliggoth

Why not just make it a S7 AP2 Blast; a Plasma Cannon that doesn't get hot.

The imperial one is a copy of the Eldar device, not vice versa