Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, was running my local club last week and this situation came up. That I wasn't 100% on (yes I know, the Great Gwar! not being sure of a rule, for shame!)

Cassius attached to 3 TH & SS and 2 LC Terminators assault a unit of Necron Warriors with an attached Lord with Staff, Lords Reaction Leads to him being in BtB with the Terminators but not chaplain.

Cassius and LC termies do their thing and kill a load of Necron Warriors, and the Lord Hits back, luckily getting 3 wounds. The Termie Player assigns the 3 wounds to his SS Termies, but fails 2. The Necrons then attack, causing the remaining TH Termie to die. The Necrons lose the combat, fail the test and break off. By this time, Cassius was more than 2" from the remaining Terminators, but still in BtB with the Warrior Unit. The Marine Player said he was allowed to sweeping advance because cassius was no longer attached to the unit (see the 2" range Circles), so could attempt a sweeping advance on his own.


I ruled that he still counts as being part of the unit, and because even one of the other members cannot Sweeping advance, the unit cannot. My reasoning was the rules for Independent Characters, saying that they may not leave the unit in the Assault or Shooting Phases.

After the game I had another look and started having second thoughts. The rules do say they cannot leave in the assault and shooting phase, but the wording seems to suggest that it means they can't use the assault move or Run! to leave a unit. All I'm asking really is was I right in my ruling or should have it been the other way? I notice the rules also say that a Character cannot leave or join a unit that is locked in close combat, so I guess that's another point of evidence I was right. But again, I'm not entirely sure.

I then got to thinking, if the Chaplain Moves away from the unit in the Movement Phase, but charges the same unit as them, he would technically not be counted as part of the unit, so while the Termies wouldn't get to re-roll hits, the chaplain would be able to sweeping advance as he is a separate unit. Which is the crux of my second question.

Say I have a Unit of Terminators, and an Assault Squad both charging a single enemy unit. Lets say by some freak miracle, the enemy isn't wiped out, but does fail its moral check, can the Assault Squad then attempt a sweeping advance, even though the terminators cannot?

Diagrams coming Soon™

yes he is still part of the unit. A IC may only leave a unit in the movement phase. Now if the IC can sweep advance and the squad cant is an interesting dillema, especially since the IC's are always moved first in a sweeping advance. So unless he is physically locked out he must advance. Nopw the squad cant advance but the IC can and must so he is put back into CC if possible and being as he is the only one you can move the opponent then moves his unit (IC;s first) 6" in attempt to get into CC. When the next phase comes around if the IC is in CC and the termies arent (2" dosent count because IC's are independent in CC) hes basically screwed as the opponent gets to direct all of their attacks against the lone IC. And on another note the IC must move first and end their movement more than 2" away from any unit. If they end their movement within 2" of a friendly unit they must join that unit. You cannot move the unit away from the IC because when a IC joins a unit its movement for that phase is done. Yes the assault squad gets their sweeping advance/massacre, they are 2 seperate units and ones rules do not apply to other units. The only drawback is that if the packers killed all of their opponents (even a different unit) and the termies did not the packers must move into CC with the termies opponents.

In you other example with the chaplain yes it would work that way, however if you lose combat the termies and the chaplain both take tests at whatever negative they lost by. and the termies wouldnt benefit from the chaplains LD score because they are seperate units (entirely seperate not just seperate because of the IC in CC).

Your second question is clear - yes, the assault squad can SA. They're a different unit than the termies and you roll SA per unit, not per side. Page 41 - Assault results says it clearly enough IMO. "Any winning unit free to make a SA" rolls for it.

As for the chaplain and the terminators I'd have to agree with you - ICs are not allowed to leave units in the Assault phase. Him getting out of coherency when removing shooting/CC casualties means exactly nothing, except that the player must try to restore coherency in the next Move phase. The IC could decide to not move back when the time comes, ofc.

So if the Chaplain left the unit in the movement phase, then charged the same unit, the Chaplain would be able to sweeping advance?

That is how I am reading it, but one can never be to sure

One other way to look at it is to turn it on its head. If the terminators had LOST the combat would you make one roll or two for a sweeping advance? Once the fighting is done the unit is a whole once again. Casualty removal cannot separate the character from the unit win or lose the combat.

In short, your instincts were correct in both the actual and hypothetical situations. Character not joined to unit before assault = 2 sets of resolutions, character attached before combat = 1 set of resolution.

Pg48 says an Independent Character may not join or leave a unit while either he or the unit is locked in combat or falling back.

Also on Pg49, 2nd paragraph of Independent Characters and Assaults says they are treated as a separate single model unit. Once all attacks are resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onward).

Your points were correct, but these are some other points to support your argument.

The rules for Terminator armor say that a "model" equipped with it may not sweeping advance. Since the chaplain is not equipped with terminator armor, why does he not get his chance to SA the necron warriors?

I think it's murky, because the rules for SA only refer to units and not models, but nowhere in the terminator armor rules (at least not in my chaos codex) does it say that the armor prevents a unit from performing a SA, but only the models.

He joined the unit, and just from my feeling on RAI, movement/options usually come down to the lowest denominator. So Cassius with Terminators would be stuck with the terminators even though, alone, he could perform a SA.

Page 76 for the 'Relentless' rule book, and page 102 terminator armor entry referencing Relentless, C:SM.

That, and as others have stated, he was very much stuck with the Terminators and isn't allowed to leave the unit while he/they are in combat.

Cassius is stuck with the Terminators and would not be able to SA.

But sweeping advance has nothing to do with movement rates any more.

The note under "relentless" and "assaulting limitations" seems to me to be more about characters in terminator armor not being able to assault if non-terminator models in his unit fired rapid fire weapons, for example.

I agree that the chaplain may not leave the squad as a result of the casualties in the combat, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the non-terminator-armor model does not trigger a sweeping advance check if the baddies break.

willydstyle wrote:But sweeping advance has nothing to do with movement rates any more.

The note under "relentless" and "assaulting limitations" seems to me to be more about characters in terminator armor not being able to assault if non-terminator models in his unit fired rapid fire weapons, for example.

I agree that the chaplain may not leave the squad as a result of the casualties in the combat, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the non-terminator-armor model does not trigger a sweeping advance check if the baddies break.

And as you've pointed out, only UNITS perform sweeping advances and if you have a model in Terminator armor that is part of the unit and you sweeping advance with the UNIT then the model in terminator armor has most certainly performed a sweeping advance. The only way to follow the terminator rule in this circumstance is to prevent the unit (which includes the model in terminator armor) from performing a sweeping advance.

Gwar, you were correct in your rulings.


Da Gob Smaka: You either have your terms mixed up, or your rules mixed up, and probably both.

Rulebook p40 under Sweeping Adwances says that the unit uses the majority initiative, or the highest if no majority for the advance test. This implies that fast fighters will get bogged down by having to hang around their slower friends. If I had to do this ruling, I'd stretch that a bit to imply that if the majority of the unit may not do a sweeping advance, the unit may not. If no majority, use the "fastest" and most initiative-rich model to determine.