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I've just got into Fantasy not to long ago by picking up Warriors of Chaos and I've since been writing/researching/modifying army lists like mad to get one I sit well with. In my travels through the various Warhammer forums to do so, I've noticed that many tourney lists are gravitating towards Demon Princes- specifically, Tzeentch Lvl 4 wizardly ones.

On paper they seem kinda risky, so I wanted to know if any of the DakkaDakka community have played with or against one, and how it performed. Thanks!

The Daemon Prince is overpriced in WHFB. It's a classic example of a unit priced for strong magic and strong close combat, while it can obviously only do one of the two in every turn.

Yes, their magic and close combat capabilities are good. However, a Chaos Lord is equally good (or better) in close combat and costs less. Just like the Sorcerer Lord is equally good (or better) in the magic phase and costs less. Since the Daemon Prince can't use both his close combat abilities and his magical abilities in the same turn, you are better of taking one of the other heroes.

Ximinez wrote:I've just got into Fantasy not to long ago by picking up Warriors of Chaos and I've since been writing/researching/modifying army lists like mad to get one I sit well with. In my travels through the various Warhammer forums to do so, I've noticed that many tourney lists are gravitating towards Demon Princes- specifically, Tzeentch Lvl 4 wizardly ones.

On paper they seem kinda risky, so I wanted to know if any of the DakkaDakka community have played with or against one, and how it performed. Thanks!

Imho, the main reason people use daemon princes is the tendrils of tzeentch-gift which offers good miscast protection, and makes spells go through more often (and helps in dispelling too). As the close combalt-oriented gifts in the WoC book are pretty much utter pants, I'm thinking that most people try to use either Tzeentch prince, Nurgle prince or unmarked one (all with maxed levels). The problems with the other two marks are pretty apparent in addition to the poor gift selection. The issues with MoS are that the lore is very on/off (versus ItP armies) and the mark offers no additional bonuses against ranged attacks which are often the bane of dp's. The MoK gives the already vulnerable model frenzy which will lead him to trouble easily and if you try to hide him, he won't accomplish anything not being a wizard. Bottom line is that if you want seriously fighty characters, take chaos lord and/or exalted champ (good armor, good stat lines and nice selection of magical weapons).

About the "usable" trio, the Tzeentch prince is seems to come on top by a big margin. MoT is the best mark for dp and the infernal gate is the spell that benefits from the tendrils the most. The only big negative thing is that the dp may not roll the gate as he knows only 4 spells (making the Tz sorcerer lord certainly a valid if not preferrable alternative as he has accees to spell familiar). The Nurgle/Non-marked dp don't have as big of a problem in the spell selection but they do have lesser protection and the big spells certainly aren't as scary as the gate altough if you happen to roll pit and unseen lurker from shadows...

Regardless of which dp you use, he does have good stats for beating up light stuff such as warmachines and light cav + he can cause a terror check here or there. It's wise to pair him up with mobile bsb (tz bsb on a disc with golde eye seems like a good option) as the reroll
will enable him to make use of the stubborn better.

Here's a decent albeit quite expensive magic heavy character setup (probably will fit only into 2150/2250+ list):

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Lvl4, Tendrils of Tzeenthch
-535
Exalted Champ of Tzeentch - BSB
Disc,Flail,Shield,Golden Eye,Bloodcurling Roar
-219
Nurgle Sorcerer #1 - General
Lvl2,Chaos Steed,Infernal Puppet
-191
Nurgle Sorcerer #2
Lvl2,Chaos Steed,2xDispel Scroll
-206

Airmaniac wrote:The Daemon Prince is overpriced in WHFB. It's a classic example of a unit priced for strong magic and strong close combat, while it can obviously only do one of the two in every turn.

Yes, their magic and close combat capabilities are good. However, a Chaos Lord is equally good (or better) in close combat and costs less. Just like the Sorcerer Lord is equally good (or better) in the magic phase and costs less. Since the Daemon Prince can't use both his close combat abilities and his magical abilities in the same turn, you are better of taking one of the other heroes.

I don't necessarily disagree that the dp is overcosted (why didn't gw give him chaos armor at least) and you can certainly make chaos lord a better fighter (he's overcosted too btw, yay!), but I think that you're wrong on the the rest of the points. Firstly, you can cast gateway in combat as it doesn't need line of sight so you can easily bash up some light stuff and cast away at the same turn. Secondly tendrils certainly makes the dp a better caster than sorcerer lord. The biggest issue is, as I stated on the earlier post, not rolling the gateway, but this can happen to the sorcerer lord too.

I'd take the special character vilitch (sp?) over the dp any day of the week....and I'm fairly confident that GW will make the model look like crap if they ever make it.

Bat Manuel wrote:I'd take the special character vilitch (sp?) over the dp any day of the week....and I'm fairly confident that GW will make the model look like crap if they ever make it.

He's certainly the most useful special character lord in the chaos book, altough the biggest issue with him is the mobility (or lack of it), and you sort of need a good mage bunker unit with him.

Daemon Princes are terrible units. They have the statline of a Lord, minus 1 Ld, and they can't take magic items. Lords and Sorcerers are better in close combat and magic respectively.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Daemon Princes are terrible units. They have the statline of a Lord, minus 1 Ld, and they can't take magic items. Lords and Sorcerers are better in close combat and magic respectively.

Can you explain how a lvl4 Tzeentch sorcerer lord is a better caster than a lvl4 Tzeentch dp with tendrils? Getting to reroll that miscast (and possibly getting IF) is pretty damn huge.

The only DP I've seen used to great effect was the Tzeench DP w/ Tendrils. Using it to get Gateway off with IF.

Thanks to the wording on the spells, Gateway doesn't require LOS so you can keep the DP hidden away while you cast if need be.

The main problem is that 1/3 games where your Level 4 DP doesn't roll Gateway.

The reason is that Sorcerers don't cost you a quarter of your list and are just as efficient for their points cost.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The reason is that Sorcerers don't cost you a quarter of your list and are just as efficient for their points cost.

If you'd have answered that he's better because he can get spell familiar, I'd have actually believed you.

Chaos wizards have decent combat stats so it's a valid option giving a sorc lord disc and some cheap magic weapon so he can engage warmachines and some light support stuff in close combat. Obviously he has spell familiar, enchanted shield and golden eye so he's quite durable vs ranged attacks. As the chaos list sorely lacks good warmachine hunters, it's quite handy to have this kind of dual purpose guy. Fully kitted he costs around 450 (with 1 scroll and couple of useful gifts in addition). Regarding the dp, he works exactly like that except he's more scary in cc (+stubborn), causes terror and is a better caster with the tendrils. Lvl4 Tzeentch prince with tendrils and roar costs 555. I could pay about 100 points extra for those added benefits altough the dp loses somewhat in the ranged durability department (t5,4+ws vs t4,1+sv,3+ws). It has to be said that both options need another disc hero to complement them, though.

If one wants to run some "cheap" sorcerer lord with just a spell familiar and a barded steed, I can see the points difference being large but at the same time he really doesn't do nearly as much as the more expensive guys, so the preference may not be as clear cut as you make it to be.

You know what else is a really good sorcerer?

Vilitch. He's cheaper than a kitted DP and has that wonderful ability that lets him steal dispel and power dice.

Cheese Elemental wrote:You know what else is a really good sorcerer?

Vilitch. He's cheaper than a kitted DP and has that wonderful ability that lets him steal dispel and power dice.

He certainly is, altough there's a couple of negatives regarding him.
1) He's a footslogger, so you need a bunker and he may get problems with the range of his spells.
2) He's a special character and often times those are spesifically banned in tournies and frowned upon in friendly games (rightly so if you look what kind of nastiness the daemon ab has in that department for example).

I’ve faced the L4 Tendrils prince/Gateway combo three times in tournaments, and it’s definitely worth the points. In addition to everything else nice said about him in this thread, he combos well with Nurgle sorcerers for support. Buboes eats enemy dispel dice, and Curse of the Leper is awesome at helping the prince actually beat things in close combat.

Vilitch is cool except for the mobility thing. When a given wizard is a)a linchpin of your strategy and b) ~ 20% to 25% of your army’s points, you want to be able to maximize the range/application of his spells and keep the enemy from engaging it on his terms. Being able to fly around to do both is a big advantage of princes and of sorcerer lords on discs.

I swapped my DP for a tzeench wizard lord, not for the magic, or cheapness, since the DP i was using was not a wizard, but because with the list i had i realized the best way for me to deal with dragons and the like is to hit them with gateway and flickering fire. The DP just couldnt cut it and i didnt have a lord model that could be as mobile as a flyer.
But i stand by the DP and if i had the points or the inclination to make him a tzeench spell caster i would.