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hello ,
i have decided to post this to see who is better once and for ALL , banshees or scorpions ?

so i did some maths :
note : all attacks are made in the charge , this means +1 attacks
also note : these attacks are against marines

9 scorpions + exarch ( scorpion claw , ( weapon that gives +1 strengh for each hit )

first , the scorpions attack (exarch got claw , remember ?) :
36 , 18 hit
18 hits , 9 wound
marines make saves , 3 fail them and die

now the exarch attacks :
5 attacks , 3 hit ( meaning he gets +3s , that's s9 with his s6 claw )
3 hit , most probably all 3 wound
no armour saves allowed , 3 dead marines

3+3 = 6
not bad at all right ? let's see the banshees


9 banshees + exarch ( energy weapon that gives +2 strengh )

the exarch attacks first (i6) :
4 attacks 2-3 hit , let's say 3
3 hit , 2 wound
2 dead marines

now the banshees :
27 attacks , 13 - 14 hit , let's say 14
14 hits , 4 wound

4+2 = 6

so they are even , right ? WRONG!!!

scorpions EAT commanders because of their exarch , they got a 3+ smurf save , and they are better against horde enemy's

so , imo the scorpions are ALOT better

Wait, what happend to the " but banshee have boobies"
part? I thought thats the only reason people use them for?

PS can you give us mathhammer for orks too?

as well as their counter attacks etc etc ^^

lol, not allways luna
i think the speed and PW's play a nice part in that

Can't have a biting blade and a claw, and even if you could, you can't gain the bonuses of two different special close combat weapons.

Other than that, against normal chump marines a scorpion's claw is just as good whether it's str 6 or 9.

Banshees have Fleet, which is a big, big bonus.

I personally like scorpions more though.

boobs lol.

i will NOT make maths against terminators , scorpions exarch kills 3 and the normal scorpions scratch the rest do DEATH .

banshee counter attacks ? i don't think that this ability is very usefull . sorpions can have the scouts ability which is better imo.

@ luna hound

i could make maths for orks , but you nead to tell me which unit against another unit ?

omar, ill allways take scorps due to the models themselves

but as for fleet vs scout, i'd take fleet if possible, it give you much more of an advantage through out the entire game rather than the start, providing the mobility needed to keep out the way of things, or to assault a potential threat quickly.

well fleet is kind of a gamble , and the scorpion armor makes up for that

the power weapons also make up for the slightly worse save
what can i say, i like to gamble

jd21290 , i have included the bonusses of the energy weapons , otherwise it wouldn't make any sense , would it ?

i know that, but i was just stating that i prefer those to the extra save

Ah, the ancient competition between the two dedicated Elite Eldar CC Specialists. I think it comes down to two different tools for similar jobs. Scorpions are tougher, but slower, stronger, but lack powerweapons. Banshees are faster but vulnerable, deadly when they can connect but fragile, and not strong enough to reliably create a large wound gap.

I think the reason your maths are confusing is because you're looking at the place where they meet. If my projections are correct, Banshees will do far better cutting through heavy infantry (TEQ), while Scorpions will be all-around more solid, and do more damage to a horde.

If I had the codexes and time here at work, I'd do your experiment vs 5 Terminators and vs 30 Ork Boyz (with PK) for each.

Then, be a real Eldar, and see what the same scenarios work out like when you throw Guide/Doom into the mix (watch how much it benefits the Banshees, especially).

against termis , banshees win
against orks , scorpions win

banshees are made to kill mechs

i started this thread to show that scorpions can do the same job as banshees , just as good

Did some mathhammer in another one.

10 SS, 10 HB, 10 DA.

Vs 30 ork mob.

SS will kill the most and average losing about 5 SS.
HB will still win but average losing about 7 HB.
DA with exarch with SS, PW and both abilities kills as much as the SS but averages only losing about 3 DA.

The difference is the SS will do most of their killing in CC but the DAs will do it in the shooting phase.

So while SS and HB win the combat, both units are pretty well spent in one combat while the DA unit will be relatively viable yet.

So my vote is for neither in 5th Ed instead take another
DA squad.

Although I must agree, purely on looks I like the SS squad.

true.

anyway , banshees were made to kill units with a very good save , scorpions were made to kill hordes and , when well equiped , can easily f*Ck commanders

DAaddict wrote:Did some mathhammer in another one.

10 SS, 10 HB, 10 DA.

Vs 30 ork mob.

SS will kill the most and average losing about 5 SS.
HB will still win but average losing about 7 HB.
DA with exarch with SS, PW and both abilities kills as much as the SS but averages only losing about 3 DA.

The difference is the SS will do most of their killing in CC but the DAs will do it in the shooting phase.

So while SS and HB win the combat, both units are pretty well spent in one combat while the DA unit will be relatively viable yet.

So my vote is for neither in 5th Ed instead take another
DA squad.


Although I must agree, purely on looks I like the SS squad.

But did you take into account additional casualties caused by combat resolution, or the fact that a smart ork player will remove casualties from those able to be assaulted first?

Also banshees and scorps are 16pts each, DA's are 12pts each and are scoring.


How do harlies fare in comparison? They also compete for the elite slot.


P.S. that banshees work best against termis falls down big time against TH/SS. Those things are just wrong on every level...

My 127 point storm guardian squad works well against TH/SS terminators.

Pointless thread, the Eldar army needs both for different roles. Some may be better, but only on a situational basis.

Comparing Dire Avengers to Guardians is far more useful.

@OP, i personally perfer Banshees:
1. Great model [if it a terrible model then i dont use them]
2. Great fluff and one of my favourite phoenix lord
3. Fleet is a must for eldar
4. PW eats MEQs
5. The option for the exarch ar better IMHO

Here is a full unit of Harlies (Toupe Leader, 9 Harlies with Kiss of Death), full unit of Scorpions (Exarch with Claw) and full unit of Banshees (Exarch with Executioner) vs 10 MEQ. I assumed the Eldar charged and only calculated the damage they could deal on the charge.

Scorpions:
9*4 attacks 4+ to hit = 18 hits
4+ to wound = 9 wounds
6.75 3+ saves = 3 unsaved wounds
Exarch with claw 4 attacks 3+ to hit = 2.3 hits
2+ to wound = 2.3 unsaved wounds
TOTAL = 5.3 dead

Banshees:
3*9 attacks 4+ to hit = 13.5 hits.
5+ to wound = 4.5 wounds.
Exarch 3 attack 3+ to hit = 2 hits
3+ to wound = 1.3 wound
reroll wounds = .7 wound
TOTAL = 6.5 dead

Harlequins:
4*9 attacks 3+ to hit = 24 hit
4+ to wound = 12 wound (4 rend)
8 3+ saves = 2.6 unsaved wounds + 4 rending wounds
Troupe Leader 4 attacks = 2.6 hit
4+ to wound = 1.3 wound
TOTAL = 7.9 dead

The Harlies come out about a kill ahead of the Banshees, and do much better thanthe Scorps. The Harlies will be better against anything with a save worse than 3+ though, as thir greater number of attacks will traslate into more unsaved wounds as opposed to the banshees whose unsaved wounds remains constant against anything T4. If either unit charges a unit of 10 MEQ that has had Doom cast on it, they should kill the entire unit.

For kicks, this includes Doom in the calculations (once again, the Eldar charged):

Scorpions:
9*4 attacks 4+ to hit = 18 hits
4+ to wound = 9 wounds
re-roll 9 = 4.5 more wounds
13.5 3+ saves = 4.5 unsaved wounds
Exarch with claw 4 attacks 3+ to hit = 2.3 hits
2+ to wound = 2.3 unsaved wounds
TOTAL = 6.8 dead

Banshees:
3*9 attacks 4+ to hit = 13.5 hits.
5+ to wound = 4.5 wounds.
re-roll 9 = 3 more wounds.
Exarch 3 attack 3+ to hit = 2 hits
3+ to wound = 1.3 wound
reroll wounds = .7 wound
TOTAL = 9.5 dead

Harlequins:
4*9 attacks 3+ to hit = 24 hit
4+ to wound = 12 wound (4 rend)
reroll 12 wounds = 6 more wound (2 rend)
12 3+ saves = 4 unsaved wounds + 6 rending wounds
Troupe Leader 4 attacks = 2.6 hit
4+ to wound = 1.3 wound
reroll 1.3 wound = .65 wound
TOTAL = 11.95 dead

Harlequins Are better at killing in each situation regarding 10 MEQ, largely due to str4 and WS5. Power Weapons make a much bigger difference than the extra attack that Scorpions get over the Banshees. Harlequins are much more expensive a unit to purchase, however they seem to be dramatically more effective. Scorpions even out with them against things like Guardsmen because they both hit on 3s and both wound on 3s with the same number of attacks.

Alright... my premise is that you really want Dire Avengers over either SS or HB other than for looks and fluff.

10 SS: Exarch w biting blade and both abilities.
10 HB: Exarch w Executioner and both abilities
10 DA: Exarch w PW & SS and both abilities. (We are talking DA as a CC alternative thus the load out.)

versus 30 ork shootas w Nob PK.

Eldar have doomed the orks and will shoot and then charge.
Mathhammer rounded.

10 SS pistols - 7 hits, 5.25 wounds, 4.25 kills

40 CC attacks - 20 hits, 15 wounds, 12.5 kills

22 Ork attacks - 11 hits, 7.33 wounds, 4.77 kills
3 Nob attacks - 1.5 hits, 1.25 kills.

Combat resolution - Orks lost by 6. 5 more orks dead.

7 ork, 1 nob left. 4 scorpions left.

Banshees:

shooting: 4 kills
30 CC attacks - 15 hit. 8.33 kill

34 ork attacks - 17 hits, 11.33 wound. 5.61 kills
3 Nob - 1.5 hits, 1.25 kills

Cmbt res - orks lose by 1 1 more dead

15 orks, 1 nob vs. 3 banshees.

Dire Avengers

Shoot: (bladestorm, I am charging afterall) 18 hits, 13.5 kills

18 CC attacks, 9 hit, 5 wound, 4.33 kills
3 PW attacks, 2 hit, .89 kills

10 ork attacks(defend) 5 hit, 3.33 wound, 1.62 kills
2 nob attacks 1 hit, .83 wound, .53 kills

CC resolution: Orks lose by 3. Run on a 9 or higher roll as there are only 11 left.



So all together SS : 22 orks killed for 6 scorpions. Points: 132 for 96.
HB : 14 orks killed for 7 banshees. Points: 84 for 112.
DA : 19 orks killed for 2 dire avengers. Points: 114 for 24.

Now against Meq the HB should be better and DA vs vanilla tactical marines is not that good because defend is lessened. I still say any T3 race should always choose firepower units with a touch of HTH over a dedicated HTH unit. You can argue that SS did awesome but tell me how effective the surviving unit will be?

willydstyle wrote:Can't have a biting blade and a claw, and even if you could, you can't gain the bonuses of two different special close combat weapons.

Other than that, against normal chump marines a scorpion's claw is just as good whether it's str 6 or 9.

Banshees have Fleet, which is a big, big bonus.

I personally like scorpions more though.

The scorp exarch can have both a biting blade and claw. The Claw replaces the exarch's shuriken pistol, and the blade replaces his scorp chainsword. This is RAW out of the eldar dex.

The S6 claw means that the scorp exarch cannot insta-kill anything, meaning he isn't as useful as a MEQ powerfist for taking out characters, where as the banshee's exarch's higher iniative would spell doom for a character. Their 3+ armor and extra attack is useful in situations where you are facing more opponents (usually hordes) and they can outflank. The banshees have fleet and power weapons, and have banshee masks. Scorpions are still just as good as banshee's against MEQ's, so it all depends on how many 2+ saves you face that you really need the powerweapons for, and if fleet will serve you better than Infiltrate or Outflank.

Your math is shifted in the scorps favor. Not only did you give them an illegal option, but you also gave them an exarch with equipment while the banshees had no exarch. With no exarchs one scorp can kill .33 meqs while one banshee can kill.5 meqs so if you take 10 with no exarchs the HBs will kill 5 in one turn and 3.33 in all sequencial turns of assault while the scorps kill 3.33 and 2.5 on all sequencial turns.

Ack!

Threadnomancy.

Feel free to start a new thread, if the subject warrants it...