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Lets discuss ninja tau tactics. Tau have been rated as a weak army and I believe ninja tau can become the force mech tau once was.

You start with a survivable HQ on the board.

You bring in one unit on turn 2 and one unit on turn 3, your army list is your toolbox and you chose what you need. While it's important what you chose to bring in (broadsides? hammerhead? kroot?), it is not very interesting.

What is interesting is how you play a game where you have two turns. How do you win a game if you have two turns?

Can anyone describe to me what's going to happen? I bring in everything that doesn't roll a 1 on turn 4. I ignore all the pretty stuff and just focus on the mission. Normally Tau has to worry about assault marines etc but in this game you've probably deployed your army far away from the assault marines or have neutralized them, so all you want to do is decide which objectives to grab, which objectives to contest, and which troop unit is holding which objective that you're going to kill now.

Your opponent spends two turns with his pretty units doing all sorts of wrong damage but he also has a choice, your troops or your own pretty stuff? It may be that he can't kill your troops because your crisis are in the way. Actually, it should be that he can't kill your troops because your crisis are in the way. So your opponent spends his two turns (maybe three or four, ie turns 6 and 7) killing all your awesome firepower, and you win with barebones of an army in the right position while your opponent wriggles because he's lost his backbone, his troops.

Oh and Ninja Tau in Annihilation or another kill point variant is also very good. Running away is so much more effective when the game ends soon.

Sounds bone-chilling. I want to see battle-reports!

hmm, the only thing i would be concern about is armys which auto deploy everywhere, aka Demons. Demons could hurt this badly especialy if they deploy second. Though I dont want to be a pessimist(spelling), I also want to see this in action. COULD work, but requires a very skilled player.

Interesting. I'll pass this on to my cousin who plays Tau. Fits well with Tau strategic planning doctrine for fluff.

The issue with the tactic is that there are ways to easily counter it. The first major issue is keeping the HQ alive. With the advent of TLoS, it's harder to keep him from being shot, and even if there is a piece of terrain to hide behind you still have to worry about indirect fire weapons and things that can manuever quickly to get a shot. (Also Deep Strikers that come in turn 2 if you go second.) Since the commander is the ONLY thing on the board, people will find ways to kill him.

Other mission based issues, is that for capture and control you essentially give up the reasonable possibilty of taking the enemy objective. For Seize ground, you are letting the enemy put all his stuff on the objectives before you come in. Tau don't have the assault elements to force units off objectives, so you essentially are forcing yourself to try and kill a lot of the enemy in only a couple turns. The only thing you have that can move the enemy with is tank shocking and that is easily countered by simply having a meltagun. For kill points, you are essentially throwing 3 units out there by themselves and giving the enemy some free killpoints.

I personally don't see the benefits of this tactic outweighing the negatives. You're giving the enemy a lot of time to position himself, and you're wasting a lot of time that you may need to wear the enemy down. Tau aren't orks, they don't have the tools to wipe armies quickly. They need to use their range and maneuverability to wear down the enemy until they're weakened enough to go in for the kill.

The concept is very interesting, though I echo some of the worries surrounding forcing units off objectives you want. I have found playing against Tau that while their suits can drop and wreck a unit in the open with no problems, they have exceedingly little that can do that while the target is in cover. Playing against Tau I always put the objectives in cover (except sometimes with orks) as the scary tau weapons (plasme, fusion, railguns) that can take me off the objective do not have the volume to really do the job in one turn vs a 4+ save, but the firewarriors and kroot can always be flamered and assaulted off the target.

I would be really interested in seeing battle reports about this idea though, as such tactics are rare and fascinating to see pulled off.

I will be attempting this tactic this weekend. I'll post some batreps and see if Ollie's strategy works.

Capt K

if it works ill drop a few bucks for more suits

Its an interesting tactic, it first came up on TO, that I found.

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=74750.0

Looks like a lot of players have been having quite a bit of succes with it.

I played two separate builds today. one was a ninja tau list, as described, but using some sniper drone teams (which synergism great with this playstyle) as extra distractions/infantry killers. It worked far, far better than i thought it would

Then I used a "mobile gunline" or "dragoon" build where you make a gun line, and splurge on fish to block assaulters. you can basically either play it like a gunline or a traditional mech list depending on the circumstances. I went gunline against a necron player and was basically crippled by a deepstriking monolith by turn 2.

I don't want to jump to conlusions after trying each strategy after only one game, but I have not had such a decisive tau victory in such a long time as I had wit h the nonja tau list. it was fun, it worked, and I think it would work against anything short of deamons or dark eldar. But frankly, both of those armies are bad matchups already, so...

Now, a few thoughts:

What armies would really give ninja tau trouble? I think anything that can close with you commander turn one is a big deal and is going to present a serious problem this makes lists like drop pod assault lists, tzeench demons, and drak elda issues since all of those lists could potentiality snipe the commander very early on by the simple expedient of being able to hit him that early.

Alrighty, batrep.

Unfortunately the guy I played against had absolutely no idea what ninja tau was and played terribly.

It was dawn of war kill points, he went first. I brought hammerhead on turn 3, broadsides turn 4, and everything else in on turn 5. He rolled a 1 and the game ended. He killed nothing of mine and I killed 4 units, I won.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The issue with the tactic is that there are ways to easily counter it. The first major issue is keeping the HQ alive. With the advent of TLoS, it's harder to keep him from being shot, and even if there is a piece of terrain to hide behind you still have to worry about indirect fire weapons and things that can manuever quickly to get a shot. (Also Deep Strikers that come in turn 2 if you go second.) Since the commander is the ONLY thing on the board, people will find ways to kill him.

It's actually easier to hide a single model with drones or 2models with drones than you think. Also turns 2 and 3 your dropping some nastiness for them to worry about. The nastiness could be your hammerheads coming in, suicide tank/swarm killing squad, or whatever is appropriate. The commander in this is usually set up with iridium armor, stim injectors, 2 shield drones, and sometimes a shield gen and one weapon. His bodyguards are set up to exploit wound allocation.
I disagree with your second analysis also. (A) As it is a counter relying on the reserves first coming in on turn 2 and (B) you want to go second for the end game benefits. Their are some armies that might prove problematic but the ones that do, come with their own drawbacks such as the drop pod heavy army or where your opponent castles up in a corner. These builds and deployments sacrifice late game mobility.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Other mission based issues, is that for capture and control you essentially give up the reasonable possibilty of taking the enemy objective. For Seize ground, you are letting the enemy put all his stuff on the objectives before you come in. Tau don't have the assault elements to force units off objectives, so you essentially are forcing yourself to try and kill a lot of the enemy in only a couple turns. The only thing you have that can move the enemy with is tank shocking and that is easily countered by simply having a meltagun. For kill points, you are essentially throwing 3 units out there by themselves and giving the enemy some free killpoints.

Ok, your arguing based on a false premise. That false premise is that the Tau get to fire with their whole army for the entire game. You say that its unrealistic to expect the Tau to win the game in 2 turns. Problem is that is pretty much all we've ever had before the assault units get to our lines and force us to move. Putting our Fire Warriors into devilfish cuts too much of our firepower.
As to the no-assaulting to get the objective Tau argument. What's really different? As a Tau player you never run out and sit on an objective early in the game thats how you lose games with the Tau. Instead what Tau do is to place their objective in areas that have clear fields of fire and let the other players jump on them early so we can shoot the to pieces. The only time you put objectives in or near cover is on the table edges to maximize your outflanking kroots potential.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:I personally don't see the benefits of this tactic outweighing the negatives. You're giving the enemy a lot of time to position himself, and you're wasting a lot of time that you may need to wear the enemy down. Tau aren't orks, they don't have the tools to wipe armies quickly. They need to use their range and maneuverability to wear down the enemy until they're weakened enough to go in for the kill.

Once again the Tau don't really get to use all of their firepower for the whole game. Then there is the fact that with this tactic you are not facing your opponents entire army just isolated elements. If you place your objectives well, you'll spread his army out to where your reserves wipe out the mission critical elements of your opponents army.

Honestly this tactic isn't really all that new of a concept. It's very similar to the old IG drop troops doctrine. The real difference between the Tau version and the IG version is that the Tau use a more precise method and the reserves that come in are much more durable and survivable. This tactic is designed to exploit mismatches. Put your troops against the object or area guarded by your opponents anti-tank units and put your Tanks against their anti-infantry.


Now personally I usually play Mont'ka. A mobile Firepower build that creates the illusion of a gun line as bait and then disappears once the enemy gets close. My army starts to funnelthrough which flank I punched a hole in and turn the game to long table edges as I start moving towards the objectives. Just because my preferred style of play is different doesn't mean that I can't appreciate this style.
This style is Kauyon. It's for the patient hunter that waits for the right moment to engage his very dangerous prey.


Edit for spelling

what about a BA SP army with sherik or how ever you put him name him and 10 other guys in HTH first turn
sorry had to put this fast my class is ending

dareaper wrote:what about a BA SP army with sherik or how ever you put him name him and 10 other guys in HTH first turn
sorry had to put this fast my class is ending

Explain how he gets into hand to hand first turn? Seems impossible.

Shriek infiltrates with a jump pack and fleet. He has to set up 18" away from you, and then gets to move 19-24" for the assault. If he's got the first turn, he's got the charge, and there's not much you can do about it.

To deal with BA shrike maybe a Farsight command squad built to last and with a Fail-safe detonator?

ya as aduro said
Sorry that i dident say why he could get in to hth first turn but my class was over and the new class was comeing in as i was typeing lol

but theres not much him and an assault group cant kill round 1 that you leave out ,all most 40 attacks with str 5 or more 7-8 are power weps from the srg and shrike
i think if you see him on the other team maby leave a 2nd group on the table since they cant take out 2 groups round 1

i dont know how much other places see shrike but where i am i see him a lot

dareaper-Then you are underestimating what shield generatored shield/gun droned crisis bodyguard can absorb in the way of wounds.

Lets take a look:

40 attacks-2/3 hit 26.333 hits

avg 50% wound ratio for wounding unless they're getting Furious assault then its again 2/3 wound ratio.

Figure at the higher ratio it comes to 18- ish wounds.

Now farsight with just three bodyguards and six drones comes to 10 wounds before repeating. Play with the wound allocation sending the majority to the drones and only 2 of the suits are taking double wounds.

Move up to Four bodyguards and no suits take double wounds. This is before the 50-60% save ratio. Then the suits get to strike back. 1-2 unsaved wounds from farsight then then another unsaved from bodyguard. Figure losing battle at 10 to 3 and the squad falls back because of the fail-safe detonator.

Next turn, Shrike and company are standing under Farsight and companies plas guns in rapid fire range. Plus whatever comes on behind shrikes squad. Between the combined firepower of the 2 squads shrike will be by himself at the end of the shooting phase if he is lucky.

Now at this point I don't know if BA get the combat tactics rule or not. If they don't then Farsight might assault shrike and finish him off. Or he could manuever to stay away from the rest of the fast moving BA army. He only has to survive one more round and the army starts coming on as planned.

It would be a very costly exchange for both sides but would end up with Farsight and pos relay still on the board plus another unit to screen them with.

Then instead you could also do this.

You could deploy the screening unit at beginning of game to keep the infiltrators out of range of your HQ castled in the corner.

The OP definition of Ninja Tau was slightly off. Ninja Tau isn't limited in definition to just the Commander on the board but is usually seen as one or two units deployed at the start of the game with one unit containing a positional relay.

This tactic has the flexibility and tools to adapt to most of the situations it might face. Don't get stuck in thinking I always have to do this with this build. Its up to you to find how to make it work for you in a variety of circumstances.

I think it all depends on who plays what where you game...Yes there are some bad match ups, but I haven't seen anyone play a raven guard army. Especially on these boards, it seems like a lot of players are doing a sternguard drop pod type of force.

I know that's what I want to build eventually. This seems interesting and I am going to look into this further as I used to play Tau, but haven't touched them in a while. I was going to put together a pathfinder heavy force, then 5th came out and the idea was scrapped due to the only troops score rule.

I'm interested in any more batreps that people have and other thoughts about how it's played.

Shriek infiltrates with a jump pack and fleet. He has to set up 18" away from you, and then gets to move 19-24" for the assault. If he's got the first turn, he's got the charge, and there's not much you can do about it.

This tactic isn't like using drop pods or daemons -- you can choose not to use it and deploy as usual, if for some reason that is better. Assuming you have kroot or other infiltrators you can always use them to attempt a pushback.

winterman wrote:

Shriek infiltrates with a jump pack and fleet. He has to set up 18" away from you, and then gets to move 19-24" for the assault. If he's got the first turn, he's got the charge, and there's not much you can do about it.

This tactic isn't like using drop pods or daemons -- you can choose not to use it and deploy as usual, if for some reason that is better. Assuming you have kroot or other infiltrators you can always use them to attempt a pushback.

Perfectly stated.

The trick with Ninja tau is not that you HAVE to only have the shas'o on the table. Ideally you want to go second and just have him on the table. But sometimes when you lose the roll to choose to go first or second, and your opponent makes you go first, then you just deploy your whole army. Or sometimes when you face off against multiple strength 8 ap2 shots (like 3x exorcists) and you don't have complete LOS block, then you need to include an additional unit with the shaso.

As winterman said... the easiest way to counter shrike would just be to deploy an additional kroot unit with your shaso. make a push-back screen with them, allow the charge to go off (get all your initiative 5 strength 4 attacks in), then call in a proper counter on turn 2. If your shaso and screen were deployed on an extreme flank, then you could just ask for another 25 man kroot unit and charge shrikes unit. For 300ish points you just countered a 400ish point unit, along with your opponents gimmick.

Ninja tau is cool because of how extremely flexible it is. You can play it as standard, totally off table, or some combination. And you'll make that choice only after you have gathered a maximum amount of information about your opponents army. If you win the roll to choose first or second, or if you lose the roll and your opponent is not experienced at facing ninja tau, then you get to go second. You won't even choose what deployment style until after you've not only seen his army, but where it is on the table.

@Shep-Have you ever put the positional relay on a stealth team leader?

This could be a nice twist when combining with infiltrate. It would allow you to deny that sneak up by enemy infiltrator.

Before any one goes there, You don't have to infiltrate close to the enemy. I often use the threat of infiltrate to make the opponent grab for an area that isn't tatically good for him except too protect against my infiltrate. I then "infiltrate" my kroot or stealth teams into my lines.

I found thtat Stealth teams can make a good 4+ cover screendoor for my troops using JSJ.

Honestly, the OP could've simplified the concept by talking about creating a Tau unit heavy in Scouts and Infiltrators. Using the Outflank rules for Scouts, Infiltrating wherever possible, and Deep Striking those units that can, it is possible to cause all kinds of nasty havoc behind enemy lines.

Deploying a solid line of FW's into cover at the beginning of the game, and having turns 2/3/4 be filled with all kinds of Outflanking and Deep Striking fun sounds interesting, I will try this next week when I play with a mix of Stealth Suits, Pathfinders, Kroot, and Crisis suits. Will let you all know how it goes.

Aye, I need more battle reports! Off you go.

focusedfire wrote:@Shep-Have you ever put the positional relay on a stealth team leader?

This could be a nice twist when combining with infiltrate. It would allow you to deny that sneak up by enemy infiltrator.

Before any one goes there, You don't have to infiltrate close to the enemy. I often use the threat of infiltrate to make the opponent grab for an area that isn't tatically good for him except too protect against my infiltrate. I then "infiltrate" my kroot or stealth teams into my lines.

I found thtat Stealth teams can make a good 4+ cover screendoor for my troops using JSJ.

Very interesting... I'm not sure if stealth team shas'ui has access to special issue wargear. If he does, then i really like that as a positional relay base.

AAUUGGHHH, They are the only suit unit aside from broadsides to not get access to Special Issue wargear.

Have I mentioned lately that I love my Tau armies but hate my Codex.

Well it was a nice idea. Maybe in the next codex.

This is the army list I have made, trying to base as much of it as possible upon a "Outflank/Deepstriking" Tau army

2500 pts.

2500 HT Force Tau

HQ
Crisis Command Team Bodyguards (2) 145
Shadowsun 175

Troops
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150
Fire Warriors, 12 Shas’ui Shas’ui Markerlight Markerlight 150

Elites
Stealth Suit, 6 Shas’vre , Self-Destruct 200
Crisis Suits, 3 Shas’vre 85
Crisis Suits, 3 Shas’vre 85

Fast Attack
Pathfinders, 5 Devilfish Shas’ui 150
Pathfinders, 5 Devilfish Shas’ui 150
Vespid, 6 Strain Leader 102

Heavy Support
Hammerhead, 1 Disruption Pod Flechette Discharger Blacksun Filter 170
Hammerhead, 1 Disruption Pod Flechette Discharger Blacksun Filter 170
, 0

Points Summary:
HQ: 320
Troops: 900
Elites: 370
Fast Attack: 402
Heavy Support: 340
Total: 2332

That is the force. I have yet to add in costs for the weapons on my Crisis suits, but that is what I'll be using. The tanks will also have 2 Seeker missiles each (need to add those points in). If there are any mistakes, suggestions, etc., let me know. The scenario will be 2500 pts., DOW Deployment rules. Should I go fire, having the Blacksun filter on the Hammerheads will be essential for some Round 1 pwnage.

X[Edit]X Italicized "upgrades" for help with understanding.

Um the whole point of ninja tau is to have a positional relay and id drop a fw squad for a maxed ot krrot with hounds squad

Um the whole point of ninja tau is to have a positional relay and id drop a fw squad for a maxed ot krrot with hounds squad

another thing about ninja tau is by the time your whole army comes on they should be right on top of your deployment zone so you can walk on the firewarriers on a rapid fire them to death (3 fire warrier squads and a kroot squad rapid firing on a berzerker squad with abadon equals abadon alone) you have enough shots to kill the stuff that makes it close to you