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Years ago, in time forgotten, My brother came home with a / starter combo set. We sat down and read through the giant tome of rules, before assembling the squad and fighting a few 1 squad and skimmer battles. . We boht decided to build up our respective armies, but did not like nor the . After some research, my brother decided to collect . After some google image searches and browsing in a GW (with sales reps that were oddly not overbearing or annoying), I decided to futher the cause of the Greater good . We each bought a few vehicles and units, built them and started painting. Then we both lost sight of it as it was buried with time.
So recently i found my half-painted and unpainted , and decided to pick it back up. I got myself the new codex, and checked out the nifty new stuff. 'Pihranna?' 'What sniper drones?' 'WHERE IS AUN'SHI?!?!'

Before i start buying, i want to know what my fighting force will look like, beginning with the commander.
So now the point of this post, What are the Pros and Cons of Commander Farsight and Commander Shadowsun? and how do they stack up against each other?

please use words and proper colored text.

Years ago, in time forgotten, My brother came home with a Spacemarine/Dark Eldar starter combo set. We sat down and read through the giant tome of rules, before assembling the squad and fighting a few 1 squad and skimmer battles. We both decided to build up our respective armies, but did not like Spacemarines nor the Dark Eldar. After some research, my brother decided to collect Regular Eldar. After some google image searches and browsing in a GW (with sales reps that were oddly not overbearing or annoying), I decided to futher the cause of the Tau'va, or 'Greater good' We each bought a few vehicles and units, built them and started painting. Then we both lost sight of it as it was buried with time.
So recently i found my half-painted Kroot and unpainted Fire warriors/dfish, and decided to pick it back up. I got myself the new codex, and checked out the nifty new stuff. 'Pihranna?' 'What sniper drones?' 'WHERE IS AUN'SHI?!?!'

Before i start buying, i want to know what my fighting force will look like, beginning with the commander.
So now the point of this post, What are the Pros and Cons of Commander Farsight and Commander Shadowsun? and how do they stack up against each other?

OK.

Both are special characters and don't have to be taken, you can make a perfectly good army without.

Farsight's advantages are;
He counts as the army commander
He can take a very large Crisis retinue whose potential I described in the other thread
He grants some Ork-fighting benefits to his troops
His magic sword is a good melee weapon

Disadvantages
Troops cost more for maybe not much real benefit
Limitations on units like Kroot and Broadsides weaken the rest of the army
Expensive

The most successful Farsight build I am aware of is Torgoch's 'Gundam Wing' (my name for it) which maxes out the Farsight + Bodyguard unit to make a unit with heaps of firepower, significant melee power and high resistance to damage especially in 5e where you can configure the suits to allow wound distribution.

Shadowsun's abilities...

For
Grants a command bubble of Ld 10.
Using her two Fusion guns she can mince one heavy vehicle by deepstriking on a suicide mission -- this is good if you face a Landraider or Monolith.

Against
Doesn't count as army commander -- arguable -- see the other thread.
Short range weapons mean her Stealth field is pretty useless under 5e rules.
Expensive.
Can only be taken in an army over I can't remember what point limit.

If you absolutely have to use either one I would go for Farsight simply because he's the coolest, and if you like crisis suits you can't go wrong. Honestly though a lot of Tau players don't bother with special characters since we don't really have any good ones, so I think a regular 'El would be best.

You can always use R'myr if you wanna pay for him. His rules are available in PDF form on forgeworld's web site. I use him w/ slight aesthetic mod, as just a normal 'O with tl Plasma Rifles and Shield.

I'd just use the r'myr model and normal commander rules as IMO niether SC are worth the extra points.

Kilkrazy has actually said all of it, but you could do as I do and don't use any special character at all!! (more point for shooty things)



And what do you have against sniper drones? ( VERY usefull for killing SM)

Farsight no longer makes your guys cost more. In the old codex he made you pay a tax on your guys for the special HtH bonuses he gave them. Now you get Ork Fighter (preferred enemy orks) for free.

Both of them require armies of at least 1500 pts to be used.

Shadowsun could actually mince two vehicles on a Deep Strike if they're close enough together. She's got an advanced target lock that lets her split her own fire on two different targets.

I'm building a Tau army up that will be led by Shadowsun myself currently. I used Farsight in my past Tau army from the first codex. Now days, the local Tau use a bunch of crisis suits, and a couple of them are fans of Farsight, so I'm going opposite of them and taking her with no crisis.

R'myr does have the coolest fig though.

imho I think that the crisis suits are the mainstay of the Tau, but now with the new codex nifty stuff i guess you could get away without it. My biggest beef is that they nerfed Aun'shi, in the face. The new special Aun is an old-fart riding a grav-toilet, with two people watching the door for him,( i guess the lock broke). im about to go look at R'myr's rules, but in the meantime, if i could get some insight to his not-so-evident pros/cons t'would be much appreciated.

Aun'va is pretty much an epic fail. The model is okay, certainly nothing special, nothing that I look at and say "I HAVE to have that in my army!", but the rules really kill him. Something like 200+ points, for a character that hurts you more than he ever helps. You're basically paying out the ass to put yourself at a disadvantage, ethereals are a waste of points period, nothing they do is worth the risk of having your entire army run off the board, but 200+?

Yeah, certainly up there with the likes of Eldrad, Ghazgkull, Abaddon, and Calgar, eh?

To be honest Aun'shi wasn't much better, but he had a much cooler model for one thing and his rules and backstory were interesting. A Tau with rending FFS.

But they changed the "inspiring presence" rules so they need a line of sight, with Aun'shi, you needed just to have him on the field.
Plus, he owned at cc, had grenades, was half the price, could join squads permanently(never below 50% strength, no matter what), could parry attacks, and ignores armour on a to hit of 6.

so yeah, that dried-up old man has got nothing on aun'shi


::I have taken great pains not to laugh at the actions of aliens, nor to weep at them or to hate them, but to understand them::

What are the thoughts on the regular ethereals, and, more important, the new "special issue" items/?

I've started using one attached to a fully loaded broadside squad. This usually lets me screen the Ethereal for a turn or three while he stands in plain sight. This serves two functions.

First, It allows the ethereal to do his job by screening him with armor sv 2+.

Second, It makes the broadsides fearless. I hate failing a morale check when I've still got all of the Broadsides but have lost 3 drones.

When the unit gets whittled down to just one or two broadsides it is usually time to pack the etheral out with some fire warriors.

If I keep him with the unit when the unit is about to be assaulted. I prep my army by pushing deeper into the opponents territory and loading as much into transports as possible.


The Special issue items are generally over priced for what they do:


The Cyclic Ion Blaster, I really don't care for. If it were S4 assault 4 rending it'd be worth something but as it is I'd rather use the spot for another plasma, fusion, or burstcannon.

The Airbursting Fragmentation Projector I really like but for the exact same points of a single suit kitted out with one, a fusion blaster, and to be survivable. I get two suits with flamers and fusions.

Vectored thrust is a waste as a weapons/wargear hardpoint. I like the idea but what you sacrifice to get it is a problem. The only time I see it maybe being useful is on a Commander running solo. Even then I can think of better uses for the hardpoint.

The Iridium Armor rocks. I like it and love to arm my commanders with it and 2 sheild drones. That makes Three 2+sv models and that before you add bodyguards. I like a well protected commander.

Fail-safe detonator- I sort of like. The only time where I see it really being effective is in the Farsight bodyguard.

Advanced Stabilization for the broadsides is a very useful tool. I highly recommend it. The look on your opponents face iwhen the squad sidesteps to get a clear shot on something hes trying to sneak up is worth the 10pts a model.

Positional relay is incredibly useful, especially if you want to play Ninja Tau. Do a serch on Ninja Tau or chk the "Basic Tau and Chaos tactics" thread and what Shep has to say about it. He gives a really good description of how to use this item.

Command and control node is a waste of points.

Stim injector is nice but I find that most shots aimed at my crisis suits are of a nature to where I don't get to use the benefits if wounded. Of course, YMMV and I often do still take it.


Edited to add special issue wargear comments.

Can you use the slow and purposeful on broadsides? because it says you have to give up your jump ability that turn and broadsides dont have one. so that either means they cant use it, or they suffer no effective penalty which is beautifully cheap.

The A.S.S. was designed for the broadsides. There is no other crisis based unit currently able to use heavy weapons.

The wording was a little weird on the item, though. Almost like an inside joke to see if anyone would be dumb enough to put them on a regular crisis suit.


Also, it says "may not make an additional jet pack move in the assault phase" as opposed to giving up the move in order to use the wargear. Two very different things.



Edit for rule clarification

You can use it - it was mentioned specifically somewhere on the old GW site.

What is "slow and purposeful" exactly? havent had a chance to pick up a new rulebook yet so exct words would be appreciated(RAW)

focusedfire wrote:I've started using one attached to a fully loaded broadside squad. This usually lets me screen the Ethereal for a turn or three while he stands in plain sight. This serves two functions.

First, It allows the ethereal to do his job by screening him with armor sv 2+.

Second, It makes the broadsides fearless. I hate failing a morale check when I've still got all of the Broadsides but have lost 3 drones.

When the unit gets whittled down to just one or two broadsides it is usually time to pack the etheral out with some fire warriors.

If I keep him with the unit when the unit is about to be assaulted. I prep my army by pushing deeper into the opponents territory and loading as much into transports as possible.

I posted this insight on another forum(hope you dont mind) and someone responded with this (I think) valid point

Boneguard wrote:Too risky:

1) Broadside are already a big target so add an etherealand you opponent will focus everything on it

2) the wound allocation rules makes the ethereal more likely to be hit IIRC. He would lonly need ot do 6 would and your ethereal is automatically wounded. He pull that twice and voilà dead ethereal.

Slow and purposeful allows you to move d6" and still fire heavy weapons, IIRC.

thats it? no penalties?

Actually, you move as if in difficult terrain, so it's 2d6 pick the highest. Can't turn it off, either, so that's sort of a penalty.

@Maj. Tom- I've yet to lose the Ethereal. Those numbers need to be reworked also.

If its 2 Broadsides plus 4 drones plus the 2 shield drones from the Ethereal its 8 wounds before the ethereal takes one.
I run the squad at full strength more than half of the time and I'm careful to keep the balance of toughness at 4(4shield drones with the broadsides). This makes for 11 wounds before the ethereal has to take one. Remember this is 11 wounds per squad shooting.

I also put them in plain site but usually with cover and then string them a bit to reduce the risk of Blast and ordinance.

I'm not saying its perfect but I just finished an Apoc game where the IG player made the squad his top priority.

The squad weathered combined fire hits from 3 russes, a basi and a baneblade for 3 turns and his scatter die were running better than avg(about 50% direct hits). Of course I ignored the baneblade and focused on the rest of the tanks so by the end of the third turn all he had left was the baneblade.

Still, I detached the Ethereal at that point and moved him out of LOS and joined with a unit that was objective sitting.

With this tactic I minimize the weakness of the Ethereal, maximize its potential and make an effort to have contingencies in place in case something goes wrong(Troops in transports when/if it looks like the Ethereal might buy it next turn).

What boneguard calls too risky and draws to much attention, I call Bait and exactly the point. I like nothing better than for my crisis suits and hammerheads get ignored.

Point I'm trying to make is the when hunting or fishing don't skimp on the bait.

You make a solid point sir and i respect it.

Do you mind if i steal this tactic? if anyone asks its origins i can always point them to master tactician focusedfire

p.s. what are thoughts regarding plasma toting broadsides?

No need for flattery. I doubt that I'm the first one to use this combination. I may be using it with different intent though. Every tactic has nuances that will show up with different commanders.

But yeah use it, play around with it, find what works for you, and make it yours.

And please refer any who would wish to discuss and debate. Its one of the ways to pick up new tricks. Worst thing that could happen in such a situation(As long as its a debate and not a fight) is that someone finds a fatal flaw in a given strategy. If so, then steps can be taken to correct the flaw.

@Maj. Tom- as to your question about plasma on the broadside.

I like it but its not an automatic.

When running the plasma guns on the broadsides I almost never take the A.S.S.. Its a points thing. I find that I need to move then its usually because something is getting close.
The plas can make for a bit of a surprise because of their rapid fire profile and because the broadsides still benefit from the crisis stable firing platform rules. Love the look on SM players faces when the broadsides move up to get the rapid fire from the plasmas if I need it.

I usually run the plasma broadsides in my farsight army with the following set up.
Shavre-w/plas, bond knife, shield gen, HW multi-track, HW drone control+2 shield drones
2XShas'ui-w/plas, shield gen
Occasionally I'll run the second shas'ui with shield drones instead. It allows for exploiting wound allocation but it makes me feel all dirty and Ork-like

Tell me what you think

im guessing this is a different army b/c you cant have ethreals with farsight.
do you have the whole team with plasmas or do you give one a multi-track/sms

i like the surprise factor as i see that as one of the tau's greatest assets(as any army's) and add the fact that many other armies are simply not set up for the 'cautious' approach when dealing with a new enemy then you have a big slice of happy-cake

Yes, it is a different army, sorry should have stated it more clearly but was a bit rushed at the moment. Thats why the last post feels a little chopped.

I tend to run with a certain amount of homogeny(Sameness) in my Tau weapon loadouts. I find it maximizes their effectiveness. It also seems to be the Tau way. Give a unit a specific task and the same weapons to accomplish such.

So, yeah, I tend to arm all with the same weapons and use the battlesuit support systems to create variety within the unit.

Now, If I could guarantee that a squad was going to be BS5 every turn then I'd make more use of target locks and different weapon loadouts a bit more. But, even then, with the small size of crisis teams I find it makes the squad less effective. When I shoot at something I want to do my best of making it disappear that turn.

The exception to this being Farsights bodyguard. Target locks and different weapon loadouts are mandatory on at least 4 of the suits if your running all 7 guards. It keeps you from being locked into pumping too much firepower into a single squad. As many points as that unit costs it needs to be able to engage 2-3 seperate targets at once.

Please remember that these are just things that I've found to work for me. You are a different person and some of the options that I choose to not use may work perfectly for your personal style.

Hope this helps

As far as fluffiness goes I imagine the Tau as valuing versatility above potential over-specialization

But I do see your point that if I'm shooting at something, I want to be sure to get a homogeneous melánge(I can use big words too ) of munitions and damage/hit ratios, and not a mix of a few Submunitions and a lot of BB pellets.

I usually solve this dilemma with my little friend Mr. magnet. Of course this only helps me in between games, and not in the middle of a hotly contested battlefield.

The way I've come to understand it. the Tau value diversity as long as that diversity accepts the concept of the Greater Good.
This concept seems to be a philosophy of oneness where the individual isn't glorified except as an example of how the greater good can make an individual better through work and time.

The philosophy of oneness and not elevating the individual shows-up in the fire caste doctrine of non-organic fire support within the troops. The shas'ui can take some different equipment because they earned it through experience.

It also shows up in how the units that can take dissimilar weapons become weaker when doing so because of their small team sizes. Crisis suits and pathfinders for example. Stealth suits are almost an exception if it weren't that their stealthfield becomes worthless at fusion ranges.

This need for similarity for the Tau even affects weapon choices. Most of the longer term Tau players load their suits with weapons that are closer in range to one another. With favored combos being Miss/plas, then step down in range to plas/fusion or plas/burstcannon, next is fusion/burstcannon or fusion/flamer(My most effective deepstriking squad).



Well, Its time to take care of a few things around here. I'll catch up later.

BTW, Sorry if I sounded patronizing with the homogeny/sameness line. Its just that I spend a lot of time explaining the meaning to words to certain people I know and its become a habit.

I, too, like Mr. Magnet. Next time maybe we can swap magnetizing hints.