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The rules for the Goblet of Spite state that:

A succubus that carries the goblet of spite, any models in the same unit as the Succubus and any units with a model in base contact with the succubus and/or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in hand-to-hand combat, regardless of other facters.

The latest FAQ for the rulebook states:

Q. Am I able to gain the benefits of any of my opponent’s wargear or special rules, such as Teleport Homers, Chaos Icons, Tyranid Synapse, Necron Resurrection Orbs etc?

A. In most occasions this is clear, as the rules use the words ‘friendly’ or ‘own’ to indicate your units, and ‘enemy’ for the opponent’s. On the other hand, some rules clearly specify that they affect ‘friend and foe’. A few rules are, however, slightly ambiguous as they don’t clearly specify this distinction. As a general principle, we recommend that you cannot use or gain the benefits from any of the wargear or special rules of your opponent’s army, unless specifically stated in the rule itself (‘friend or foe’) or in an official FAQ.

Does this mean the goblet of spite no longer causes the opponents of the squad who bears it to strike on a 3+ in hand to hand, and instead it allows only the squad who carry it and other allied squads who are in base to base contact with them to benefit from hitting on a 3+ at all times?

No. While the Goblet doesn't include the phrase 'friend or foe', it is stated that enemy units in btb with the Succubus or his unit will hit on a 3+. This is unlike a Locator Beacon, which doesn't it that enemies can or cannot use it.

dietrich wrote:No. While the Goblet doesn't include the phrase 'friend or foe', it is stated that enemy units in btb with the Succubus or his unit will hit on a 3+. This is unlike a Locator Beacon, which doesn't it that enemies can or cannot use it.

It does not state that Enemy units in base to base strike on a 3+, the word enemy is never used, it is a vague rule and the FAQ says rules must be specific for an enemy to benefit from them.

It's just as specific as the lesser demon summoning rules which say they must be deployed "within 6 inches of an icon of chaos" without specifying it must be friendly or the Space Marine locator beacon which says "If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and chooses to do so within 6 inches of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter."

Yeah, you're right, it doesn't state enemy. But, it does state any unit with a model in btb with the Succubus or his unit. To help friendly units, you'd have to have a friendly unit btb with the Succubus.

I still would say no, and I'd make that ruling at any tourney that I was running. While summoning and beacons don't exclude using enemy icons and beacons, it has a more restrictive condition and specifies any unit with a model in btb.

Feel free to argue otherwise, but you won't make any friends at it. I doubt a tourney organizer would agree with you.

I still don't understand the grounds on which you think it's justified to allow the enemy to strike on a 3+.

I don't think helping friendly models is even in question, I've always played and seen it played that if a friendly model is in base to base with the unit they gain the benefit.

The real rules question here or atleast the one I'm concerned with is whether or not there's a reason that the enemy would get to hit on a 3+, and frankly I don't think there is.

Drunkspleen, you are correct.

The FAQ clarifies that the Goblet of Spite gives no bonus to the enemy.

Drunkspleen wrote:The rules for the Goblet of Spite state that:

A succubus that carries the goblet of spite, any models in the same unit as the Succubus and any units with a model in base contact with the succubus and/or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in hand-to-hand combat, regardless of other facters.

I still don't understand the grounds on which you think it's justified to allow the enemy to strike on a 3+.

Now, if there's more to the wargear description that adds or removes to the description, let me know. Otherwise, I think that since the wargear directly states the bolded phrase, enemy units get to hit back on a 3+. But, only the Succubus' unit. In other words, if there is a multi-combat, only the attacks allocated against the Goblet unit are a 3+.

I understand why you're asking, because of the Rulebook FAQ. But, I don't think it applies here. The wargear specifically includes 'any unit with a model in btb'. While it doesn't specify friend or foe, it's clear that you have to be in assault, which means you're in btb with an enemy unit.

If I was a tourney rules judge (which happens about once a year) and this came up, that's how I would rule it. I would check with tourney organizers beforehand, because if it comes up during a game, I think it'll be a huge fight.

I see where you are coming from in light of the Rulebook FAQ. But, to me, it sounds to me like you're trying to find and/or exploit a loophole.

Now, I'm a huge RAW proponent. But, when issues like this occur, I think you need to use some RAI. To me, by RAI the enemy should benefit from it. They previously did, and also realizing that third edition had several special rules like this, including the Space Wolf blood feud vs. DA and 1000Sons. This isn't a question of 'can I use some wargear from the opponent that has a radius effect' this is 'can I use the enemy's wargear that specifies all models while in btb benefit from it?'. And I think a large part of RAI is, 'how would most people play this situation?' I think most people would play it that the enemy hits back on a 3+ (but, I've been wrong before). Maybe that's 51%, maybe that's 90%, I'm not sure, but I think it's at least 51%.

YMMV, but I still say that the enemy hits back on a 3+.

Another way to look at it, while it doesn't specifically say "Friend or Foe" it does say "Any unit." "Any" with no qualifiers (like "any friendly unit") very clearly means both sides. In the case of Icons / Locator Beacons that were FAQ'd, there is no use of the word "any" in the description, which is why there is ambiguity.

In this case, it's pretty clear that any unit that touches the Succubus or her unit gets to hit on 3+, period.

I would say that the FAQ clearly mops up any grey areas here.
It doesn't mention friend or foe, it doesn't clarify enemy or friendly.

IMO that means it only works for friendly models.

Yeah, c’mon, why would it benefit both sides? That is contrary to RAI, and almost everything in the game, with a few very specific exceptions.

Oh, and why does tournament play obviate common sense? If you would rule one way in tournament, and another way in a friendly game, you have forgotten the original purpose of tournaments.

Gobbla wrote:Yeah, c’mon, why would it benefit both sides? That is contrary to RAI, and almost everything in the game, with a few very specific exceptions.

Oh, and why does tournament play obviate common sense? If you would rule one way in tournament, and another way in a friendly game, you have forgotten the original purpose of tournaments.

How is it contrary to RAI? The item until now very clearly did benefit both sides, in fact that was obviously the intended purpose of it. It says "any unit with a model in base contact..." In the edition the book was written for, that obviously includes enemies. In fact, how often do you have your own units in base-to-base with each other? Pretty much never, unless you are trying to take advantage of this rule. I would say the wording is clear and that the use of the words "any units" is exactly equivalent to saying "friend or foe," as "any" means just that: any.

Gobbla wrote:Yeah, c’mon, why would it benefit both sides? That is contrary to RAI, and almost everything in the game, with a few very specific exceptions.

Because previously, it did benefit both sides as originally designed and in third and fourth edition. To me, that means RAI is it benefits friend and foe.

Oh, and why does tournament play obviate common sense? If you would rule one way in tournament, and another way in a friendly game, you have forgotten the original purpose of tournaments.

I'd play it the same way in friendly play, but I'd also discuss it with my gaming group and try to get a consensus on how to play it. I would hope the OP does the same. But, I see the point of throwing it out on dakka and seeing how other groups have played it.

TehCheator wrote:Another way to look at it, while it doesn't specifically say "Friend or Foe" it does say "Any unit." "Any" with no qualifiers (like "any friendly unit") very clearly means both sides. In the case of Icons / Locator Beacons that were FAQ'd, there is no use of the word "any" in the description, which is why there is ambiguity.

In this case, it's pretty clear that any unit that touches the Succubus or her unit gets to hit on 3+, period.

What about this phrase, "Any Tyranid broods with a model within 12" of a synapse Creature..." It's just as broad, yet the rulebook FAQ specifically cites it as one of the rule's which caused this ruling to be made.

dietrich wrote:Because previously, it did benefit both sides as originally designed and in third and fourth edition. To me, that means RAI is it benefits friend and foe.

Previously outnumbering increases for thornback did something differently, previously the Tau Disruption Pod didn't offer a 4+ cover save. All sorts of items of wargear have thier effect changed by the new rulebook / FAQs, I don't really see why this is a case where you shouldn't accept the new RAW ruling. While I do understand why you feel it's against RAI, I just think similar situations have happened too many times to consider this any different.

Drunkspleen wrote:What about this phrase, "Any Tyranid broods with a model within 12" of a synapse Creature..." It's just as broad, yet the rulebook FAQ specifically cites it as one of the rule's which caused this ruling to be made.

The difference is in the use of the word "Tyranid." It's a subtle point, but in this context, GW isn't clarifying the "any" part of it, they are clarifying that "Tyranid" means "Controlling Player's Tyranid" unless otherwise specified. If you've ever played the card game Magic, they have a similar situation, a card that says "Super Creature of Awesomeness gets +1/+1 whenever it attacks," which specifically refers to that individual card. Even if there are 15 "Super Creature of Awesomeness" cards on the board, only the one gets the bonus. The FAQ clarification is providing the same thing, namely that the word "Tyranid" reflexively means only the controlling players Tyranids, in the case of a 'Nid civil war.

But when combined with all the rules which don't list any army such as the locator beacon which just says "If a unit wishes to arrive on the battlefield via deep strike and chooses to do so within 6 inches of a model carrying a locator beacon, then it won't scatter." It's clearly not clarifying that any reference to an army means only your own army and not the opponents as there is no such reference here.

It's clarifying what it says to be clarifying, that in the situation where rules do not specifically state that they apply to both friend and foe, it defaults to friend only.

In the case of the tyranid rule it's saying any unit gains the benefit, then applies the further restriction that it must belong to the collective "Tyranid", the Goblet of Spite simply lacks that extra restriction, but they are for the purposes of the FAQ exactly the same.

Wow, if GW pulled its head out of its 4th point of contact and generated a new DE 'dex we'd be good. 2nd Ed books don't always jive with the 5th ed rules. Fortunately we don't see the goblet too much now. Those wyches really don't need the thing to get to busting skulls though.

If it makes sense to you and your friends that it gives both the unit and ANY unit in b2b contact the 3+ use that. If you rely on that for a win in tourney settings modify the army list.

krumpaork wrote: 2nd Ed books don't always jive with the 5th ed rules.

You mean 3rd editon, Second printing.

And dont feel bad, Poor Necrons and the 2 Inquisition armies didn't even get a Second printing Acknowledged. And Space Wolves, well, they are a mess also. You need 2 Codex's (a total of 4 over the last 10 years) and need a PhD in English to just understand the FAQ/Errata and how it all interacts.

But yeah, its a shame. Here's me hoping that Phil Kelly does the rewrite for all ya'll

Gwar! wrote:And dont feel bad, Poor Necrons and the 2 Inquisition armies didn't even get a Second printing Acknowledged. And Space Wolves, well, they are a mess also. You need 2 Codex's (a total of 4 over the last 10 years) and need a PhD in English to just understand the FAQ/Errata and how it all interacts.

\
And Space Wolves have a stealth second printing that is different (like True Grit works with combi-bolters) that isn't acknowledged anywhere.

My answer still holds, but I see the counter arguement. It's how I would rule at a tourney if it was asked. It's how I would answer in a friendly game too, but then I might be willing to go the d6 route just to finish up the game. The final answer is that the OP needs to:
1. Resolve this within his gaming group by reaching some consensus
2. Check with any tourney organizers.

Since I'm neither 1 or 2, my opinion is just an opinion and in no way binding to him. I'd also consider sending Yakface a PM or sending John Spencer at GW an email.

And Space Wolves used to ignore outnumbering in melee combat, but that's gone away too. Lots of things have gone away in fifth. And I play Tau too, so all the special rules about Target Priority are gone too. Some rules are just 'gone' because they don't work in fifth. Some rules don't work as originally designed in Fifth (such as D-pods giving Tau vehicles a 4+ cover save vs. being hull down).

Maybe part of my reaction is because this strikes me as loophole-searching. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The OP doesn't play it as a "I want to ignore this disadvantage" which most loophole-searching posts involve. Maybe I'm just reading the OP wrong and throwing around a bad accusation (and I don't know the OPoster, he is probably a great sport and is probably not a rules lawyer - or a real estate lawyer, or any type of lawyer ).

But, it is certainly a fair question. I get the impression that the revision to the Rulebook FAQ was a last-minute knee-jerk reaction that was hastily added without any thought of the ripples it would create in the 40k pond.

And to the OP, you might think about putting a Poll up just to gage relative responses. Even if you get 40 responses, that's a decent sample size. I would guess it comes out about 50/50, but going a little towards the 'enemies don't strike on a 3+' side. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before.

So after rereading the FAQ entry about enemies getting the benefit of your wargear, I'm forced to agree that the way everything stands right now, the enemy units don't get to hit on 3+ because of the Goblet, at least not by RaW. I think GW was trying to clarify things the way I described in my last post, but just failed miserably at actually saying that, instead casting a blanket "If it doesn't say 'friend or foe' then it doesn't affect the enemy." It's ridiculous because this item was clearly intended to work for both sides (and did right up until that FAQ was published).

GG Ambiguous, Inconsistent Rules

TehCheator wrote:So after rereading the FAQ entry about enemies getting the benefit of your wargear, I'm forced to agree that the way everything stands right now, the enemy units don't get to hit on 3+ because of the Goblet, at least not by RaW. I think GW was trying to clarify things the way I described in my last post, but just failed miserably at actually saying that, instead casting a blanket "If it doesn't say 'friend or foe' then it doesn't affect the enemy." It's ridiculous because this item was clearly intended to work for both sides (and did right up until that FAQ was published).

GG Ambiguous, Inconsistent Rules

After reading the fluff for the Goblet of Spite again, I was about to post that you and dietrich were right, and I was wrong. Now, back to square one...

The problem stems from the fact that Jervis Johnson writes rules that are fluffy, and not particularly practical, and Gav was primarily a Fantasy guy. The Goblet would make perfet sense in WFB, where units line up in b2b, and the enemy would get the benifit of 5 models hitting on 3+, instead of a whole squad.

Gobbla wrote:After reading the fluff for the Goblet of Spite again, I was about to post that you and dietrich were right, and I was wrong. Now, back to square one...

The problem stems from the fact that Jervis Johnson writes rules that are fluffy, and not particularly practical, and Gav was primarily a Fantasy guy. The Goblet would make perfet sense in WFB, where units line up in b2b, and the enemy would get the benifit of 5 models hitting on 3+, instead of a whole squad.

But the fluff only says "It exudes an almost palpable aura of hatred, driving those near to it into a state of such utter savagery that their frenzied screams mingle with those of their victims" since the fluff doesn't explicitly state 'friend or foe' the fluff only applies to the Dark Eldar player's units.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gobbla wrote:After reading the fluff for the Goblet of Spite again, I was about to post that you and dietrich were right, and I was wrong. Now, back to square one...

The problem stems from the fact that Jervis Johnson writes rules that are fluffy, and not particularly practical, and Gav was primarily a Fantasy guy. The Goblet would make perfet sense in WFB, where units line up in b2b, and the enemy would get the benifit of 5 models hitting on 3+, instead of a whole squad.

But the fluff only says "It exudes an almost palpable aura of hatred, driving those near to it into a state of such utter savagery that their frenzied screams mingle with those of their victims" since the fluff doesn't explicitly state 'friend or foe' the fluff only applies to the Dark Eldar player's units.

Hey, I never thought it should benefit the opponent. But, that was because there are almost no instances where something like wargear or spells does affect both sides. I think Fantasy has a few, and it is always clearly spelled out itif it does. But, I think you are reading more into the sentence than is actually there: “since the fluff doesn't explicitly state 'friend or foe'” is not the same as saying “the fluff only applies to the Dark Eldar player's units.”

The idea of using the enemy’s teleport homers is strictly gamey, and does not square with the fluff, or anything remotely resembling a military action, or the basics of GW games.

Rule for Goblet of Spite

"The Goblet of Spite is a sacred relic of the Dark Eldar Wych cult. It exudes an almost palpable aura of
menace and hatred, driving those near to it into a state of such utter savagery that their frenzied, atavistic
screams mingle with those of their victims.

A Succubus that carries the Goblet of Spite, any models in the same unit as the Succubus and any units
with a model in base contact with the Succubus and/or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in hand to hand
combat, regardless of other factors."

The 5th edition FAQ clarifies that unless it says "friend or foe" the enemy doesn't benefit from it. The problem here is that they're FAQing a 3rd edition codex, which would not have used Friend or Foe in its nomenclature.

As a Dark Eldar player, I never, ever used the Goblet of Spite specifically because it allowed the enemy to hit me in close combat on a 3+. If the interpretation had been that only "friendly" models benefit from it, then it would have been a "no-brainer" choice for only 5 points. All my wyches hit on 3+, all the time? Yes please.

To my reading and interpretation, the original was clearly of benefit to the enemy, i.e. "...any units with a model in base..."

I think its an even more pendantic reading to now say that what was clear before, now is the opposite because of a lack of "friend or enemy" in the description of a piece of wargear that is two editions old.

I'll continue to play that is allows my enemy to hit me on 3+, and hence not take it, until GW either specifically addresses the Goblet in an FAQ, or updates the codex. I wouldn't, with a clear conscience, try to make an argument for the other interpretation.

As a long time DE player myself, I played it the exact same way as Cruentus said.

But.....We must follow the FAQ.

For example, before the wych weapon rule FAQ (4th ed FAQ), I thought it read and everyone else I knew that read it (in excess of 20 or more people over the years), stated that whether attacking or being attacked by the wyches, the wargear lowered the weapon skill of the opponent by half rounding up *shortened, not a quote*. But a FAQ came out and stated that only the wych weapons were a 'defensive upgrade' and only affects the unit attacking them and not the wyches attacking the unit.

In the same spirit, I believe this new FAQ changes (just like all the other DE wargear and rules from recent FAQs to include but not limited too: Goblet of Spite (only units with WS), DE jetbikes, Retinue rule (back in 4th, they lost the bonus all do to a FAQ, and in 5th got it back), and the Talos's rules to name a few.

So, with this new FAQ, I honestly believe (and backed completely by RAW) that this is yet another change to how DE are played, and not realizing this until this post (thanks for the info!) will show this to my FLGS and see how they feel how this is read. Then play how I believe they will read it (known these guys for a long time and they are believers in rules). This is pretty obvious as yet another change to DE play.

As far as how it 'should' be played, I don't know. The GoS was a completly useless upgrade except when attacking vehicles with nades, but since the recent FAQ changing it, it then now became a 100% useless upgrade...well...until this FAQ which changes things yet again (as a DE player, you see your army rules change a lot!).

EDIT: Besides rule 1 when reading the rules (as Yakface and others has clarified to me at one time), you *must* disregard all previous rule interpretations you have from other editions, and look at the rule with fresh eyes and from a point of view of someone reading it for the very first time. And from that PoV, it is very clear on how the GoS must be played now.

@padixon: I'd be curious as to how your group interprets it. The GOS goes from being fairly useless as an upgrade, to being mandatory as an upgrade for only 5pts.

Unfortunately, I think this is another example of GW not being able to keep track of all the little pieces out there, and making an FAQ to address things like teleport homers and icons, and having an unintended consequence. Of course, they probably feel that 1) with so few DE players, and 2) hopefully a rewrite in the near future, it won't matter much - but it does make wyche cult that much better overall

Cruentus wrote:@padixon: I'd be curious as to how your group interprets it. The GOS goes from being fairly useless as an upgrade, to being mandatory as an upgrade for only 5pts.

Unfortunately, I think this is another example of GW not being able to keep track of all the little pieces out there, and making an FAQ to address things like teleport homers and icons, and having an unintended consequence. Of course, they probably feel that 1) with so few DE players, and 2) hopefully a rewrite in the near future, it won't matter much - but it does make wyche cult that much better overall

You are of course keeping in mind that the Goblet as a piece of arcane wargear can only be taken once per army?

Uh, yeah. Of course I knew that...

Well I'll be. Never noticed the "one per army" before. Probably because I have never ever used Arcane Wargear in my DE army because its mostly useless. Maybe now I can add one piece... shrugs...

So can a wych with the goblet use a haywire grenade on a mobilized dread in cc hitting on 3's. Yes? No? I say no as the rules for hitting walkers with grenades is clear. Though I must admit that the "other factors" bit in the Goblet entry may have credence.

Yes. their errata is very specific. here is a quote:

‘A Succubus that carries the Goblet of Spite, any
models in the same unit as the Succubus and any
units with a model in base contact with the
Succubus or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in
close combat when attacking a model that has a
WS value.’

with the words 'always hit' and 'a model that has a WS value'. I would defiantly say a walker actually has something to worry about against models equipped with nades and this wargear.