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Hey guys. I plan on fielding a squad of 6 Fragons in a Falcon but am not sure what weapons or upgrades to give the Falcon. I was thinking that an EML would probably be the way to go as it costs only 5 points more than a scatter laser, can be fired as a defensive str 4 weapon if it moves at cruising speed (I think), and then if the Falcon slows down it can also be fired as a str 8 krak shot to help with tank hunting. For only 5 points more than the scatter laser it seems like a lot more versatility; am I missing something?
Also what upgrades should I give the Falcon? In my limited experience it seems that holofields are mandatory and perhaps star engines too, considering it will be transporting the Fragons.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I don't really understand why everyone transports their Fire Dragons in Falcons. To get your Fire Dragons into range, you need to bring your Falcon really close to your opponent. Since everyone is fielding a lot of Melta weapons, this might not be a very good place for your Falcon to be (as it will get penetrated a lot). I like to use Wave Serpents to get my Fire Dragons to where they need to be. Sure they do not have the Holo-Fields, but they do have the Energy Field, which makes sure it won't get penetrated very easily. Besides, they are a lot cheaper than a Falcon with Holo-Fields is.

Yeah, I have to say that tne best way to arm a Falcon in 5th is to convert it into a WS or Prism

The only way I would field a Falcon in 5th is to put 5 DAs in it, slap on some Holo Fields and zoom around unitl turn 5 with my now scoring falcon, taking pot shots at easy targets all the while.

The best thing for Fire Dragons is a cheap WS with Shuricannons and Spirit Stones. Cheap and durable. The whole setup is cheaper than a Falcon before you even add it's mandatory weapon, let alone holofields.

Alerian wrote:The only way I would field a Falcon in 5th is to put 5 DAs in it, slap on some Holo Fields and zoom around unitl turn 5 with my now scoring falcon, taking pot shots at easy targets all the while.

This!

Great, thanks for the advice. I suppose this brings me to my next problem, in a Mech Eldar list for 1500 pts what should be providing the anti tank, aside from the Fragons in a WS ( )? Is it up to Fire prisms?

There are several options for the Mech Eldar player to include anti-tank.

Fire Dragons in a transport (Wave Serpent), are usually a very good choice. You will want to have some supporting long range anti-tank fire though.

A Seer Council (transported or on jetbikes) is another great anti-vehicle tool, but requires some long range anti-vehicle support as well.

Long range anti-vehicle support in a Mech Eldar list usually means Wave Serpents with Bright Lances (or Falcons with Bright Lances). Usually they will be transporting your Troops choices, keeping them safely at range, while supporting your heavy hitters with ranged anti-tank fire.
Fire Prisms can be used for this role as well, though they really excell at killing infantry (which should be their priority).

Thanks again. Geez, I gotta go re-do my army list now.....

Holofield, stones, shuricannon x2,
that's my standard loadout.

wuestenfux wrote:Holofield, stones, shuricannon x2,
that's my standard loadout.

Mm good call. Slow'n'shooty.

Fast'n'shooty = Holofields, stones, EML

Faaast'n'faster = Holofields, stones, star engines, shuriken cannon.

I'd go for the serpent... Falcons are great but it just seems like serpents are so much more durable. Give them EML's and they'll be able to shoot no matter what (save for flat out, etc.).

falcions are a lot tougher than a wave serpent due to holo fields

a fire dragon squad doesnt ever need to be that big enough to capitalize on the wave serpent

with the fire dragons in a falcion you're going to have a decent ammount of anti troop (cheap and effective scatter laser) to clear space for the dragons to hop out and damage those high priority targets, you dont need a ten man squad

the falcon is better for going into higher risk areas, where the holo field will make the difference

EasyE wrote:falcions are a lot tougher than a wave serpent due to holo fields

a fire dragon squad doesnt ever need to be that big enough to capitalize on the wave serpent

with the fire dragons in a falcion you're going to have a decent ammount of anti troop (cheap and effective scatter laser) to clear space for the dragons to hop out and damage those high priority targets, you dont need a ten man squad

the falcon is better for going into higher risk areas, where the holo field will make the difference

...and the Falcon will cost more points than the WS, as well as take up a Heavy slot. The WS wins, hands down, for transporting anything...including FireandForget Dragons

i will still take the falcon with holo fields to get a small shooty squad like fire dragons into high priority areas

it may take up a heavy slot, but for a fast moving army, your other options on the heavy list just get left in the dust

wraithlord too slow, and there is no point in transporting reapers

EasyE wrote:i will still take the falcon with holo fields to get a small shooty squad like fire dragons into high priority areas

it may take up a heavy slot, but for a fast moving army, your other options on the heavy list just get left in the dust

wraithlord too slow, and there is no point in transporting reapers

Fire Prisms anyone?

Also, moving into high priority areas usually exposes your expensive Falcon to Melta weaponry (which are being fielded very often). The Wave Serpent is infact, more survivable against Melta weaponry then a Falcon with Holo-Fields is.

Edit:
If you are using the Falcon to transport units (instead of just hide units), then it will not have more shooting capacity as a Wave Serpent, as you can only fire 1 weapon while moving over 6".

EasyE wrote:i will still take the falcon with holo fields to get a small shooty squad like fire dragons into high priority areas

it may take up a heavy slot, but for a fast moving army, your other options on the heavy list just get left in the dust

wraithlord too slow, and there is no point in transporting reapers

Prisms, WLs and WWs are all better choices in a heavy slot than a Falcon, unless you are using the "5 DAs + Scoring Falcon" combo:
1. The Prisms can kill tanks or infantry.
2. Against tanks a EML+BL Wraithlord is on of our best units( because it is BS 4, cannot be stunned, and must be wounded 3 times to die).
3. Against infantry and light vehicles you will be hard pressed to find anything in our codex that is better than a full Scatterlaser armed WW squadron.

A Falcon is a transport first and a gunboat second...period. The sad thing is that WS are just much better and cheaper transports, not to mention that their field is superior to the holofield when facing meltas at close range- which is exactly where transports usually go. So, with the rules fo defensive weapons changing in 5th to S4, Falcons have gone from being one of our best units in 4th, to pratically worthless in 5th.

That's very true. I've noticed the same thing Alerian. Falcon's have been relegated to actual tanks because they've lost a lot of their ability to move/fire as they are required to take a S8 main gun that'll be useless on the move. And I guess other people's experiences have been different, but my experience with serpents is that they are much more survivable due to their special rules. And, as already discussed, there's no better all around unit than 3 walkers all armed with 2 scatters. 8 shots X 3 really is amazingly good against most everything, especially if they're outflanking or scouting.

Yeah, melta spam has really doomed the once-mighty Falcon.

Airmaniac's earlier post really sums up Mechdar antitank well:

There are several options for the Mech Eldar player to include anti-tank.

Fire Dragons in a transport (Wave Serpent), are usually a very good choice. You will want to have some supporting long range anti-tank fire though.

A Seer Council (transported or on jetbikes) is another great anti-vehicle tool, but requires some long range anti-vehicle support as well.

Long range anti-vehicle support in a Mech Eldar list usually means Wave Serpents with Bright Lances (or Falcons with Bright Lances). Usually they will be transporting your Troops choices, keeping them safely at range, while supporting your heavy hitters with ranged anti-tank fire.
Fire Prisms can be used for this role as well, though they really excell at killing infantry (which should be their priority).

I would add that the biggest pain in the neck about Mechdar is fitting enough scoring troops units, a decent HtH countercharge unit, and decent anti-tank into the same list. Since skimping on troops will loose you the game very quickly (minimum 3, as I was reminded this weekend when I got cocky and took only 2), either anti-tank or CC will usually be a secondary function of some other unit. Brightlance Serpents are a great example of this. Singing spears on any transported unit are another (making Yriel and Eldrad extra useful in mech).

So try building lists that tip one way or the other, towards CC or anti-tank being the "second-class craftworld citizen". See which one your style allows you to get away with skimping on. For me, I skimp on anti-tank. You can maneuver for rear shots on tanks and try other tricky ways to beat them, but there's no other counter to CC than your own CC unit (for mechdar, who have no throwaway units to use as speedbumps).

And if for some reason you do decide to use Falcons (all you have on hand, for example), then the EML is indeed the best option.

I think the nice part is that eldar aren't totally screwed and have plenty of ways to keep running the same lists even though the rules have changed a lot.

Agreed- and anyone formerly running tri-Falcon (guilty!) deserves to have to rework their stuff anyways.

Seriously though, the old Falcon is suffering in 5th. But the other Eldar trasnport/gunship combos (like the Firestorm and Shadowspinner) look like they would rock pretty hard in Apoc, I must say. Has anyone here run them before?

I usually have my Falcon kitted out with Spirit Stones, Holo-fields, and a Starcannon. 185 pts. Good for transporting a squad of 6 Harlequins (consequently the number that comes in the box), is extremely durable, and can load off a good number of anti-MEQ shots (if you call 4 a good number). Then I can zoom the unloaded Falcon on to contest objectives (pisses Templars off).

Alternatively, I use a Falcon with Spirit Stones, Holo-Fields, EML, and Shuriken Cannon with the same Harlequin strategy. 180.

Even more alternatively, I could not use a falcon and instead spend my points on a much more powerful Frie Prism for 150 pts. That's what I usually do.

And Savnock, I can be found with a Nightwing these days, but I haven't gotten my hands on a Firestorm yet. (No offence to anyone that might be offended, but The Shadowspinners sucks in most games from what I've seen and heard.)

It really seems like the prism is finding itself in an even stronger position now, doesn't it?

Yeah, but it's apples to oranges. The Prism can't transport, which is 75% of the reason to take a Falcon.

Now if you're talking about competition for what turret to mount on your Falcon chassis, I'd agree completely. I'm just glad I had lots of spare turrets, 'cause I don't want to have 6 Falcon chassis to store.

That's very true. Perhaps we should be a little more precise on whether we're talking about functionality or killiness. I guess for me it wouldn't matter much as I'd rather take serpents for transports because I use a lot of dire avengers. I don't know what everyone else thinks of them but I love them. I'd also never take a squad of 6 in a falcon, so serpents are the way for me.