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For some reason I'm in a foul mood, so I thought I'd throw this out there. Can anyone name an Ork list where if you'd see it hit the board you'd just groan in disbelief? Say, 1500pts.

-J.

Given that I play Orks, any cheese ork army put down against me tends to make me laugh a bit. I've had more success against them than they against me. But I blame it mostly on luck.

180 boys with 9 nobs with klaws and a warphead, Tabled on turn 3.

about 1500 points. People groan when they see 140 at 2k points. Apoc. damage on a 40k scale.

I've been out of WH40K for several years and have only recently started playing again (so far only 500 point or less skirmishes). I have to ask...

What is a cheese army, exactly?

I would have thought that any army that is constructed by the rules and wins is good. Or is this more a dig on the OIC (general of army) for just jumping on some band wagon and lacking any real tactical flair?

It's the "easy, takes no skill or tactics to win" style army. Cheesy.

n3koj1n wrote:It's the "easy, takes no skill or tactics to win" style army. Cheesy.

Ok, but what does that mean? Isn't there a skill in interpreting the codex to create this type of army?

Also, if these "cheese" armies have little luck against you...

n3koj1n wrote:Given that I play Orks, any cheese ork army put down against me tends to make me laugh a bit. I've had more success against them than they against me. But I blame it mostly on luck.

...then I really don't get it. Can an Army really exist? If it was truly unbeatable everyone would play it (or set-up a counter). Or is it just the idea of an imbalanced army that exploits the rules? I'm not trying to be flip I just don't quite understand. Again, I am only now beginning to play again and understand the rules and codexes.

GoFenris wrote:

n3koj1n wrote:It's the "easy, takes no skill or tactics to win" style army. Cheesy.

Ok, but what does that mean? Isn't there a skill in interpreting the codex to create this type of army?

Also, if these "cheese" armies have little luck against you...

n3koj1n wrote:Given that I play Orks, any cheese ork army put down against me tends to make me laugh a bit. I've had more success against them than they against me. But I blame it mostly on luck.

...then I really don't get it. Can an Army really exist? If it was truly unbeatable everyone would play it (or set-up a counter). Or is it just the idea of an imbalanced army that exploits the rules? I'm not trying to be flip I just don't quite understand. Again, I am only now beginning to play again and understand the rules and codexes.

Nob Bikerz are a perfect example...

You gear out T(5) 4+++(FNP) 2 wound Nobz with different wargear on bikes (which can move + assault 24 inches in one turn (im pretty sure TB + Assault)). You can spread all non-ID wounds to the nobs, so in a 10 man squad you would have to cause 20 wounds to take down the whole squad. This is considered cheesy because it easily beats almost anything.

Cheese means that it doesn't take thought or planning to win. If you can give an army to a newcomer and have them Massacre a more experienced players army, this army is probably .

Some Cheesy Armies for you thoughts (the main ones)...
Jetcouncil!
Nob Bikerz
Double Lash Prince + Noise or Plauge marines + Oblits

To quote a wise man...

"Cheese is the battle cry of the unprepaired!"

I think you would be better off spending more time trying to win, rather than to whine

EzeKK wrote: Nob Bikerz are a perfect example...

You gear out T(5) 4+++(FNP) 2 wound Nobz with different wargear on bikes (which can move + assault 24 inches in one turn (im pretty sure TB + Assault)). You can spread all non-ID wounds to the nobs, so in a 10 man squad you would have to cause 20 wounds to take down the whole squad. This is considered cheesy because it easily beats almost anything.

Cheese means that it doesn't take thought or planning to win. If you can give an army to a newcomer and have them Massacre a more experienced players army, this army is probably .

Some Cheesy Armies for you thoughts (the main ones)...
Jetcouncil!
Nob Bikerz
Double Lash Prince + Noise or Plauge marines + Oblits

Okay, so "cheese" armies are attempting to exploit the rules. Yet the rules exist as written. If motorcycles armed with machine guns were so successful in real warfare, then the most successful armies would have the fastest bikes mounting the best machine guns. Now, all BS aside, I would think less of a player that always runs the same army, even if frequently successful, simply because they're not playing for the joy of the game. But I can't fault them for understanding the rules. With all of that said; every strategy has a counter.

Alerian wrote:To quote a wise man...

"Cheese is the battle cry of the unprepaired!"

I think you would be better off spending more time trying to win, rather than to whine

Now this I understand.

...then I really don't get it. Can an Army really exist? If it was truly unbeatable everyone would play it (or set-up a counter). Or is it just the idea of an imbalanced army that exploits the rules? I'm not trying to be flip I just don't quite understand. Again, I am only now beginning to play again and understand the rules and codexes.

if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is around to hear it does it make a noise?

Can free will truly exisist within the confines of devine intervention?

Hey man...were just humble orks, no need to get all philosophical...He just wants to see what kind of uber lists that can be created within the conifines of a 1500 point list .


Wait heres a good one (easy to beat if you are at least a decent player and dont let it get to you.)

WB x2 220 points

BW X2 120 / 150 points ( 270)

Nobs X20 1000 points

1490 points!!!!

all models can fit in a lunch pail (except the wagon of course, unless you magnatize them)

Its pretty much all been done, the nob bikers are not being played much anymore (at least not by serious ork players) everyone knows how to beat it, it was kind of a one hit wonder. People freaked out when they saw it and then realised, hey its no biggie (still its fun to break out 20 + nobs when no one is looking, it keeps them honest)

The hard core ork armies are running horde (at least 120 boys) with lootas spam (or forms of it). Although i dying to see how IG can handle 200 models on the table now, in the past they just got steam rolled by turn 3.

So really theres not anything that can be pulled out of the ork codex (competitive at least) that people havent seen. Now, fun lists can be pretty bad too. Take 45 lootas, 45 kommandos, 45 burna boys, 3 battle wagons, 9 killa kans, 2 shokk attack, 30 deff koptas. Stuuf like that is just crazy orky goodness.

But in all fairness I tend to go with the "if its in the codex its obviously ok to run" guideline. After all GW does thorough and complete playtesting, they know all of the combinations that any particular army can possibly run, of course there is nothing that can truly be described as "cheesy" *cough* 24 blood crushers, 16 blood letters, 2 greater demons and and a demon prince *cough* So what if someone happened to find the "magical" win button hidden deep within the sacred text of each and every codex, just remember one rule and youll be ok... THERES NO CRYING IN 40K!!! (but its always cool to make someone cry or better yet beat them so bad that after the tounament you see 1/2 of the players "just looking" at all the ork stuff. (yeah Im talking about you, I saw you guys there, trying to sneak out with 18 boxes of boys hoping no one would notice)

Nob bikers are pretty cheesy. Actually, any nob squad with every nob armed individually is considered cheesy by a lot of the people that I play against. Mostly because you get to exploit wound allocation rules to devastating effect. I also get groans when I put a huge horde of boyz on the table in a smaller points game but that's not as difficult to deal with as people think it is at first glance. 9 killa kanz all armed with grotzookaz is pretty ridiculous. Most people don't think too much of it until the first round of shooting when they've got 18 str 6 blast templates to deal with. It's amazing how much devastation just one mob of kanz with grotzookaz can unleash. Put 9 of them on the table and chunks of your opponents army will start disappearing really quickly if they don't know what to expect. You can also get REALLY weedy and deploy a biker warboss in a squad of kommandos with Snikrot. I've never done it but I imagine it would take a lot of persuasion that it's even legal (technically it is). That's something that I'd probably talk to my opponent about before the battle just to avoid a long drawn out argument.

i think the most annoying thing ov heard of was an ork warboss and i think it was something like 300 gretchen..... not thathard if you have plenty of pies and alot of wide spread dakka(ie things that shoot 3-5 times).... but if someone went to the effort to paint all that up i would play them just cos they went to all that effort, lol

Oh thats the best! 500 points 60 boys watch everybody freak out as they throw 11 marines on the board

and the wound dispersal isnt bad most people dont know how to do it properlly, its actually designed to kill models faster because you always have to remove a whole model when possible, so no, you cant have 10 nobs with one wound each, once they start dying the die fast, especially to instant kill, when I run nobs they run like pansy grots from termies/dreads/ordanance and I cry when they get wiped off the board.

300 gretchin is nothing...Oh Im so scared I kill 25% go ahead and run away now please, thank you very much.

artyboy wrote: You can also get REALLY weedy and deploy a biker warboss in a squad of kommandos with Snikrot. I've never done it but I imagine it would take a lot of persuasion that it's even legal (technically it is). That's something that I'd probably talk to my opponent about before the battle just to avoid a long drawn out argument.

but then they would know that you are going to.... therefor its pointless as they will keep something open to maul him/it...

technically ITS NOT! 1: read the rules, Infiltrate is lost by a unit if its is joined by a special character that does not have the infiltrate special rule. So last I checked a WB didnt have infiltrate, so no its not legal. Thats where alot of "thats so cheesy" comes in people run stuff thats not legal and there opponent dosent call them on it, o then you get the "can this be legal" threads, where the poor poster gets laughed at and made a general mockery of.

9killa kans shooting 2 str6 templates evry turn oh the humanity! Too bad its only 18" range, so if you let them get that close to drop str6 ap5 templates on your marines who will laugh because you hit 4 of them wound 3 and they all make there saves. Theres a reason noone runs it.

da gob smaka wrote: Hey man...were just humble orks, no need to get all philosophical...He just wants to see what kind of uber lists that can be created within the conifines of a 1500 point list .

Okay, okay, I wasn't trying to highjack the thread. I apologize if it seemed that way. Being new (again) to all of this I really didn't get it and I'm still not sure if I do. Perhaps if/when I get stomped by a "cheese" army when I play bigger games, I'll have an understanding.

[quote=da gob smaka)
and the wound dispersal isnt bad most people dont know how to do it properlly, its actually designed to kill models faster because you always have to remove a whole model when possible, so no, you cant have 10 nobs with one wound each, once they start dying the die fast, especially to instant kill, when I run nobs they run like pansy grots from termies/dreads/ordanance and I cry when they get wiped off the board.

LOL thats what the whole rule is, again people who dont know how to apply the rule properly is the reason why somepeople think nobs are cheesy. read the whole article concerning umits of multi unit models again. You always have to remove a whole model, if you had 10 models and 2 were wounded and 8 were not and you took 3 more wounds the 2 that are wounded must take wounds first (saves apply) after you allocate the wounds to wounded models first then you can place the other wounds where you want. And un wounded models take instant kill hits before wounded models. Wow...I really dont know what to say that so many people get this wrong astonishes me, it truly does, Im just glad I dont run into anyone that dosent know how this rule works, any way enjoy.

da gob smaka wrote:technically ITS NOT! 1: read the rules, Infiltrate is lost by a unit if its is joined by a special character that does not have the infiltrate special rule. So last I checked a WB didnt have infiltrate, so no its not legal. Thats where alot of "thats so cheesy" comes in people run stuff thats not legal and there opponent dosent call them on it, o then you get the "can this be legal" threads, where the poor poster gets laughed at and made a general mockery of.

Snikrot doesn't use the infiltrate rule. When he leads a unit he replaces the infiltrate rule with the ambush special rule. Nowhere does it say that every model in his unit has to have the infiltrate rule to use his ambush special rule. That's why, technically, it works. Since most people just assume that the ambush special rule requires that every model has the infiltrate rule that the arguments start.

da gob smaka wrote:9killa kans shooting 2 str6 templates evry turn oh the humanity! Too bad its only 18" range, so if you let them get that close to drop str6 ap5 templates on your marines who will laugh because you hit 4 of them wound 3 and they all make there saves. Theres a reason noone runs it.

18" is a lot farther than you think. When it's just one grotzooka that you have to deal with it's not such a big deal. So I shoot one unit of your marines, wound 3 and 2 of them make their saves (the chances are good that I'll get more wounds than that since they're heavy 2). When you have 3 of them then that's 3 dead marines. 9 grotzookaz = 9 dead marines every turn that I get to shoot if you're lucky. When you have a big mek with a KFF right behind them then when you shoot back the ork player only has to worry about your special weapons. You either shoot at the kanz and your opponent gets a 4+ save from their special weapons (the one or two shots that can do any damage) or you shoot at the mob of orkz behind them and they all get a 4+ save. I'm not saying that a well played dread bash is the end all be all but against some armies it's downright devastating and against most it can be pretty hard to deal with.

In before the edit

da gob smaka wrote:LOL thats what the whole rule is, again people who dont know how to apply the rule properly is the reason why somepeople think nobs are cheesy. read the whole article concerning umits of multi unit models again. You always have to remove a whole model, if you had 10 models and 2 were wounded and 8 were not and you took 3 more wounds the 2 that are wounded must take wounds first (saves apply) after you allocate the wounds to wounded models first then you can place the other wounds where you want. And un wounded models take instant kill hits before wounded models. Wow...I really dont know what to say that so many people get this wrong astonishes me, it truly does, Im just glad I dont run into anyone that dosent know how this rule works, any way enjoy.

That only applies to units with models that have multiple wounds and who are all armed the same.