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Ok here's the scenario.
Libby casts null zone(enemy rerolls succeful saves) and seer casts fortune(you reroll failed saves).
Libby hits seer
seer rolls save for 1 wound.
Rolls a 6
then he has to reroll due to null zone.
rolls a 1
will fortune allow him to roll again? (rulebook sais only 1 reroll is allowed but these are two different effects that affect the same roll so I'm not sure)

The two rules are not in conflict:

Seer rolls save for one wound. He then rerolls the save no matter if it's saved or not. Then he cannot reroll it again, as it's already been rerolled.

The effect is equal to not getting any reroll at all, they effectively cancel out.

No you cannot re-roll the dice twice. What happens is that no matter the result, you will have to re-roll the dice.

You need to clear it with your opponent if you can just ignore the re-roll.

Otherwise, rules as written, you must re-roll the result no matter what happens.

Here's what happens:

You roll all the dice.

You pick up all the dice and roll them again.

This second roll is the result that 'sticks'.

Simple! Cancel each other out. That's what I would do with my opponent... CANCEL HIM OUT. BWahahaha.

Seriously though, since you can't re-roll a re-roll... it would in theory mean that whichever was done first (ie the Fortune or the Null Zone) would be the one that stays. Now which one is done first, I have no idea...

But really I would suggest that they cancel each other out. In my mind, that situation seems most logical.

anticitizen013 wrote:Simple! Cancel each other out. That's what I would do with my opponent... CANCEL HIM OUT. BWahahaha.

Seriously though, since you can't re-roll a re-roll... it would in theory mean that whichever was done first (ie the Fortune or the Null Zone) would be the one that stays. Now which one is done first, I have no idea...

But really I would suggest that they cancel each other out. In my mind, that situation seems most logical.

Neither of them were "done first" , if by done first you mean "apply first." both of the apply at exactly the same time, but to different results of the same roll.

If you're fortuned, and in a null zone, and get hit and need to take invuln saves, you:
--- Roll your saves.
-- Look at all the ones you made, pick them up because you're gonna need to reroll them cause of the null zone.
-- Now before rerolling those, pick up the ones you didnt make, you're gonna get to reroll those because of fortune.
-- Yes, you've just picked up all of the dice.
-- Now, reroll those dice.
-- Dont reroll any of them again because you cant reroll a reroll.

Very correct Ludovic.
In a strict RaW Setting (Competitive play/Testing) this is the best way to do it, to avoid people getting pissy and calling a judge.

In friendly play, just say "Look, I'm gonna have to reroll them all anyway, shall I just roll them once?"

Oh well that works.... hehe.

Tourney play, re-roll everything.

Casual play, just roll once.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Tourney play, re-roll everything.

Casual play, just roll once.

Or if you have an opponent in tournament play who understands basic math, just roll once.

Centurian99 wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:Tourney play, re-roll everything.

Casual play, just roll once.

Or if you have an opponent in tournament play who understands basic math, just roll once.

Yes but you can never be too carful. You can go and agree "oh I'll re-roll once" but then see your opponent go "JUUUUUUUDE!!!! HE DIDN'T DO IT PROPERLY WHAAAAAAA!" so it's best to assume your opponent is a scumbag and be pleasantly surprised rather than assume he is a nice guy and be shanked.

Gwar! wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:Tourney play, re-roll everything.

Casual play, just roll once.

Or if you have an opponent in tournament play who understands basic math, just roll once.

Yes but you can never be too carful. You can go and agree "oh I'll re-roll once" but then see your opponent go "JUUUUUUUDE!!!! HE DIDN'T DO IT PROPERLY WHAAAAAAA!" so it's best to assume your opponent is a scumbag and be pleasantly surprised rather than assume he is a nice guy and be shanked.

Honestly, if anyone can't understand the concept of "the dice have no memory" and what happens when you re-roll all passed and failed dice rolls...."

I think it's funny that Gwar, who loves to come up with all sorts of RAW wackiness that no one would ever really play with, (ie. Ghaz's special rule doing NOTHING because there is no more "fleet" roll. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/235804.page ) is here complaining about having to play against TFG.

Just like in poker, if you can't tell who the fish (or TFG) is at the table then it's you.

biztheclown wrote:I think it's funny that Gwar, who loves to come up with all sorts of RAW wackiness that no one would ever really play with, (ie. Ghaz's special rule doing NOTHING because there is no more "fleet" roll. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/235804.page ) is here complaining about having to play against TFG.

Just like in poker, if you can't tell who the fish (or TFG) is at the table then it's you.

Excuse me, but your personal attacks are unwanted and unwarranted. I actually do not have any posts on that page you linked, so I don't know why you linked it.

Furthermore, me sticking to what the Rules say does not make me TFG. And where did I say I was complaining about playing TFG? Please, feel free to quote where I said "Playing against TFG is bad".

I would appreciate an public apology for this slander.

The simple fact of the matter is, the RULES state you must re-roll both Failed and Passed Invulnerable Saves. While it mathematically has the effect of cancelling out the re-roll, it's much simpler to just follow what the rules say, and takes all of 4 seconds do do so. In Doing so you have prevented a whole slew of arguments and asshattery that could occur from skipping the re-roll.

Modquisition on:

Please get back on track and move away from the GWAR discussion. Thank you.

While on re-rolling re-rolls...

Attack from the Warp on a Farseer with fortune:

If I fail the save, and then re-roll it with fortune, and pass it, is that the end?

If not then does that also mean that if I pass it, then fail it, shouldn't I get to roll again to attempt to pass it?


Also, I am only new here, but I have read much of the forums and it seems Gwar is about as helpful a person as Jesus. I would even go so far as to say he is the Jesus of Rules FAQ! He always gives a concise, easy to understand answer that fits the rules and can almost never be argued against... Even if as stated in several places it does seem like a stupid answer (like Ghazghal's fleet and re-rolling dice no matter what) it is the RIGHT answer, and that is what we are all looking for!

P.S. Plz don't hurt me Mr. Mod for the Gwar addition but I just had to give him some over-due praise!

ihatehumans, yes, you may reroll it as Fortune reads, "This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the start of the next Eldar turn."

pakman wrote:ihatehumans, yes, you may reroll it as Fortune reads, "This unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes until the start of the next Eldar turn."

Your missing the point! Your re-rolling re-rolls and the rules clearly state that above all other rules a dice may only be re-rolled ONCE. So in the case where several rules conflict, only one re-roll is in effect, as such with an attack from the warp on any psyker who can re-roll their failed saves, you must roll the save, then re-roll it no matter what the result, and the second result stands.

It is almost exactly the same as the example above, where due to the terrible writing of the GW rules, you must actually roll the same dice twice no matter what the first result is! If you just say "there's no point re-rolling the dice" and only roll it once, your opponent may call you out as breaking the rules!

I was only asking so that Gwar in all is infinite RAW power would give an answer that is not only easy to understand, but grammatically correct haha.

I thought you meant that you had failed the save once and weren't under Null Zone. Besides, the ghosthelm rule doesn't say it's an invul anyways, just says it ignores Perils on a d6 roll of 3+.

hardly no one remembers it but if you read page 50 of the BGB under perils of the warp "...Invulnerable saves are allowed, but the power of the Warp is so great that successful saves must be re-rolled ..." again if you have already cast fortune then you only roll once (or roll throw it away and roll again)

I would say (even though its a bit iffy) that if you cast fortune on a double 1 (or similar) then you only roll once ...

ihatehumans wrote:
Also, I am only new here, but I have read much of the forums and it seems Gwar is about as helpful a person as Jesus. I would even go so far as to say he is the Jesus of Rules FAQ! He always gives a concise, easy to understand answer that fits the rules and can almost never be argued against... Even if as stated in several places it does seem like a stupid answer (like Ghazghal's fleet and re-rolling dice no matter what) it is the RIGHT answer, and that is what we are all looking for!

P.S. Plz don't hurt me Mr. Mod for the Gwar addition but I just had to give him some over-due praise!

ihatehumans wrote:I was only asking so that Gwar in all is infinite RAW power would give an answer that is not only easy to understand, but grammatically correct haha.

Glad to see some people appreciate my hard work!

But to address both issues now brought up:
Fortune+Nullzone etc: You must re-roll the dice no matter the result, after which you cannot re-roll the dice again, and as such the second result stands. While mathematically acceptable to skip it and let each power cancel each other out, that is not what the rules say, and it is always best to follow the rules so an asshat opponent cannot call foul.

Ghost Helm: This isnt a save of any kind, but a special roll to ignore an effect, similar to how Feel No Pain is not a save, and as such is not affected by any sort of funky powers.

Tri wrote:hardly no one remembers it but if you read page 50 of the BGB under perils of the warp "...Invulnerable saves are allowed, but the power of the Warp is so great that successful saves must be re-rolled ..." again if you have already cast fortune then you only roll once (or roll throw it away and roll again)

I would say (even though its a bit iffy) that if you cast fortune on a double 1 (or similar) then you only roll once ...

You're right it's iffy, because that's not what happens On a Snake Eyes the power is successfully cast, but you still suffer the Perils. So if you cast fortune and suffer a perils, the same situation occurs as Fortune+Null Zone (you must re-roll if passes, and must re-roll if failed)

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:hardly no one remembers it but if you read page 50 of the BGB under perils of the warp "...Invulnerable saves are allowed, but the power of the Warp is so great that successful saves must be re-rolled ..." again if you have already cast fortune then you only roll once (or roll throw it away and roll again)

I would say (even though its a bit iffy) that if you cast fortune on a double 1 (or similar) then you only roll once ...

You're right it's iffy, because that's not what happens On a Snake Eyes the power is successfully cast, but you still suffer the Perils. So if you cast fortune and suffer a perils, the same situation occurs as Fortune+Null Zone (you must re-roll if passes, and must re-roll if failed)

OK i should have typed "(or roll and the re-roll)" after wards i though that was implied well enough ... but any way the iffy bit was when the power would kick in. I would say it would be working for the inv save but i can imagine some people saying it doesn't ... Its never come up for me. I normally (well since the start of 5th) sit my Farseer with a warlock with embolden ... I don't think I've ever lost a wound to PoW ....Still that'll jinks me for my next game

I have actually lost a wound on Eldrad before! Double one, then failed the 3+ Ghosthelm, then Failed the 3+ invulnerable (not that it mattered since I would have to re-roll it either way, but I thought I had a better chance saving after failing), then re-rolled it with Fortune and Failed it again!

The look on my face must have been gold for my opponent, I was just like, erm... wtf...

As for the cast, we play it that although it's the start of the turn, we use the previous turns fortune, so that if it was cast last turn you must re-roll all results, but if you are now casting fortune then it won't help! This isn't RAW but it seems acceptable to us fluff-wise

P.S. I did forget to mention the Failed Ghosthelm in my first example, thats why I changed it to a psyker with re-roll saves, although I also accidentally missed out the invulnerable part lol.